Water Changes

[quote author=Jakets link=board=General;num=1071412160;start=0#8 date=12/17/03 at 07:19:06]Very Curious of JohnO's system He is a man of mystery.  I've read about people like him before.  I like to call them the no water change people.  They live in Germany and Australia and a few through the southern US.  I must find more info

J[/quote]

Jakets,

"a man of mytery"  [smiley=biglaugh.gif]  I don't think so

I just don't believe that changing ( replacing ) water does any long term good in a well balanced tank.

Now if you are trying to keep animals that need VERY clean water and choose to keep those animals in a crowded tank, then yes you would have to do water changes as regular maintenance.

My experience is that if you don't overstock your tank and also stock your tank too quickly then you can eliminate water changes from your maintenace.

John

 

[quote author=JohnO link=board=General;num=1071412160;start=0#9 date=12/20/03 at 19:11:06]

Hi Nautillus,

I haven't got a top off system, just an RO water filter than I run into a plastic drum and then pour into the sump.  Top up about 7 gallons per week.
The reason I never change the water routinely is that I haven't had to do so, it's really that simple.  I learned a while back that unless you see dramatic and sudden changes that you really shouldn't do anything other than observe.  Most occurances in reef taks are cyclical and will soon pass with little or no action needed.
If you however have a problem that just wont go away then maybe a water changes is necessary, but remember when you do this all you are doing is diluting the problem, you are not correcting it.

John

BTW  My tank is approx 160 gallons inc sump[/quote]

OK first of all I am not arguing with you just interested in the way reefers do things so lets call this a gentle discussion.
1. When adding top off water in a since you are changing water. New water in and you are not adding salt or trace elements when doing this. But diluting the tank water.
2. So adding water dilutes so you must be adding supplements of some kind because a reef will use up allot of calcium etc...
3. My outlook on this is that trace elements and additives needed cost more than a bag of salt. When I change water I am not doing this to dilute a problem I am refreshing trace elements and calcium. It is more cost efficient to do water changes then to have several bottle of additives.
4. My tank is balanced and the supplements I use are Calxmax 2 part calcium alk additive, Iodine, Kent powder Turbo calcium when rarely needed, and Kent powder DHK just in case something dose go wrong but never really touch it, It is like a peace of mind or emergence thing I keep around.
5. The cost of the things I add are way cheaper then adding several different additive which you must be doing in one way or the other.
6. My view also is water never changed gets stagnate like a pond would if it never rained.  Fresh salt and elements are always needed by corals and fish.

IMO remind you that I am very interested in your system and just wanting to know the WHY behind everything... ;D

 

[quote author=Nautilus link=board=General;num=1071412160;start=0#11 date=12/21/03 at 05:04:44]

OK first of all I am not arguing with you just interested in the way reefers do things so lets call this a gentle discussion.
1. When adding top off water in a since you are changing water. New water in and you are not adding salt or trace elements when doing this. But diluting the tank water.
2. So adding water dilutes so you must be adding supplements of some kind because a reef will use up allot of calcium etc...
3. My outlook on this is that trace elements and additives needed cost more than a bag of salt. When I change water I am not doing this to dilute a problem I am refreshing trace elements and calcium. It is more cost efficient to do water changes then to have several bottle of additives.
4. My tank is balanced and the supplements I use are Calxmax 2 part calcium alk additive, Iodine, Kent powder Turbo calcium when rarely needed, and Kent powder DHK just in case something dose go wrong but never really touch it, It is like a peace of mind or emergence thing I keep around.
5. The cost of the things I add are way cheaper then adding several different additive which you must be doing in one way or the other.
6. My view also is water never changed gets stagnate like a pond would if it never rained.  Fresh salt and elements are always needed by corals and fish.

IMO remind you that I am very interested in your system and just wanting to know the WHY behind everything... ;D
[/quote]


Nautilus,

LOL OK, promise no arguments ( actually I enjoy an honest exchange of opinion, but hate arguing )

In response:

1. When adding top up water you are actually replacing water that has evaporated. The evaporated water is nearly pure ( any other elements are left behind ) therefore if you started with a full tank and ( for example ) 1 gallon has evaporated and you top up 1 gallon, you end up in exactly the same salt water mixture you started with. No dilution at all. What I was referring to when I used the word " dilution " was actually taking out an amount of salt water and replacing it with fresh salt water thereby diluting in percentage terms the amount of pollutants.

2. As in point one above adding water does not dilute ( please let me know if I have misunderstood your meaning ). The only supliments I use are to regulate Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium ( minimal ). The only reason I monitor these is that ( as you wrote ) they are depleted rapidly and need replacing.

3. If you are referring to water changes instead of water top off then I can only agree with you, I have no idea of what suppliments and salt costs in the USA, but I can tell you I spend about AU$50 a year ( approx US$30 ) for Calc, Alk and Mag treatments, I use no other suppliments.

4 and 5. Same here, as above I only suppliment Alk, Calc and Mag and nothing else

6. Interesting point of view. Maybe you could explain where the ocean gets fresh salt from I would also be interested in what you mean by "elements" and how these elements are "needed" by corals and fish.

Have fun

John

 

[quote author=JohnO link=board=General;num=1071412160;start=0#12 date=12/21/03 at 14:17:30]


Nautilus,

LOL  OK, promise no arguments ( actually I enjoy an honest exchange of opinion, but hate arguing )

In response:

1. When adding top up water you are actually replacing water that has evaporated.  The evaporated water is nearly pure ( any other elements are left behind ) therefore if you started with a full tank and ( for example ) 1 gallon has evaporated and you top up 1 gallon, you end up in exactly the same salt water mixture  you started with.  No dilution at all.  What I was referring to when I used the word " dilution "  was actually taking out an amount of salt water and replacing it with fresh salt water thereby diluting in percentage terms the amount of pollutants.

2.  As in point one above adding water does not dilute ( please let me know if I have misunderstood your meaning ).  The only supplements I use are to regulate Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium ( minimal ).  The only reason I monitor these is that ( as you wrote ) they are depleted rapidly and need replacing.

3.  If you are referring to water changes instead of water top off then I can only agree with you, I have no idea of what supplements and salt costs in the USA, but I can tell you I spend about AU$50 a year ( approx US$30 ) for Calc, Alk and Mag treatments, I use no other supplements.

4 and 5. Same here, as above I only supplement Alk, Calc and Mag and nothing else

6. Interesting point of view.  Maybe you could explain where the ocean gets fresh salt from   I would also be interested in what you mean by "elements" and how these elements are "needed" by corals and fish.

Have fun

John[/quote]

Interesting reading here----
http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/articles/TraceElements.html

1. I understand the evaporation and top-off water keeps the tank the same salinity. The trace elements are not left behind as the corals use these elements and the skimmer also removes them in time. The only way to replace these are with water changes or by the use of additives.
2. Saltwater mixes have strontium, magnesium, calcium in it and around 60 to 70 others which I could not find as I guess it is a big secret or something.
5. The ocean gets it salt from evaporation into the clouds and then it rains inland and then the rain water washes over rock etc... and the elements within the rocks sand have the salt which is washed back into the ocean.
When changing water this replaces the elements that are depleted by skimmer and time regenerating the elements needed by corals and fish.

 

[quote author=Nautilus link=board=General;num=1071412160;start=0#13 date=12/21/03 at 17:11:43]

Interesting reading here----
http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/articles/TraceElements.html

1. I understand the evaporation and top-off water keeps the tank the same salinity. The trace elements are not left behind as the corals use these elements and the skimmer also removes them in time. The only way to replace these are with water changes or by the use of additives.
2. Saltwater mixes have strontium, magnesium, calcium in it and around 60 to 70 others which I could not find as I guess it is a big secret or something.
5. The ocean gets it salt from evaporation into the clouds and then it rains inland and then the rain water washes over rock etc... and the elements within the rocks sand have the salt which is washed back into the ocean.
When changing water this replaces the elements that are depleted by skimmer and time regenerating the elements needed by corals and fish.

[/quote]

Nautilus,

Thank you for the link, I have read the article before and am in agreement with it.  As I wrote before I do not use any supplements at all except those to maintain Alk,Calc and Mag

1 and 2. The trace elements I was referring to are left behind because the discussion we had was to do with the dilution of the water after top up not the consumption of elements by the animals, that is another matter all together.  While it is very nice to try to totally replicate ocean water and include all the different chemical compounds ( 60 to 70 ) that are found in it, they are not necessary for the health of the animals you are keeping.  In other words just because ocean water has lithium and barium in it doesn't mean that your animals need these compounds to be healthy.  A good example is the coral " xenia ", scientists have studied this coral and have found that it often contains high levels of Nitrate.  Does this mean you should try to keep high levels of Nitrate in your tank?  No, it doesn't, it just means the coral absorbs Nitrate, nothing more, and will thrive in a Nitrate free environment just as well.  The same thing happens with the human body.  People absorb all sorts of compounds that are natural, that are in the air and water, but that does not mean that people need these things to be healthy.

5.  Here is an interesting link that will explain the topic of salt water and the fact that the salinity of the oceans is increasing http://www.palomar.edu/oceanography/salty_ocean.htm

I guess the only issue I have is that the animals we keep "need" the elements you are writing about to be present in the water. As animals they ( and we ) are carbon based organisms and get nearly all the things we need to survive from what we eat. What I mean by that is if an animal in your tank gets the right food in the right quantity it will live without a problem to it's health for a very long time without most of the ' trace elements' that you refer to.

John

 

Great Discussion...

Am wondering, is there any problem with changing too much water too often? - If so, what might be some limiting guidelines - other then "energy" & "expense."

Now that I have a "very" inexpensive water source (just returned this afternoon, with 3 new plastic garbage cans full) - am planning to up changes to at least 20% weekly.

I have a very "populated" 55 gal tank with 80 lbs of LR. - so only about 43 gal of water according to "GARF Calulator"

​

http://www.garf.org/

Any water "problems" are going to get out of control in a small "crowded" environment quick. -

Since quantity of changed water no longer an issue..any thoughts on more/less then what I am planning?

OmarD

 

Just found good article on water changes.

Makes great sense.

The “Perfect” Water Change Regimen?

A Healthy Habit For The Hardcore Fish Nerd!

By Scott Fellman

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/scottsh2ochgart.htm

Basically his argument is - water changes good (necessary!) - more "frequent" (with smaller amounts) better then less frequent with large amounts.

I like the idea and am going to try to start doing 2X per week with smaller amount.

Rgds

OmarD

"..Most amazing of all will be the noticeable results in your aquarium: Fishes will display brighter colors, eat better, and be more alert and active than you’ve ever seen them! Corals and invertebrates will display significant improvement in color, growth, and recovery following imposed propagation techniques. You’ll enjoy a whole new dimension of success with your system. Water parameters will remain more stable, nuisance algae will begin to disappear from your system, and your tank will take on a visual clarity that will astound you! All in all, your system will benefit enormously from the employment of these frequent, small water changes. Give them a try, and watch your system thrive as never before! .."

 

Thanks for the link Omard.
I have always said that water changes are great for your aquarium corals and fish.
(RO/DI water of course)

I am trying to understand why some do not do water changes and it really baffles me why!
Why! I am interested in everything behind this method of reef keeping.

 

I do about 10% RO every 2 weeks more as a 'top off' with no salt added. Every time i've added salt it seems the SG raises too high. I may actually drain water out about every 3 months. I add iodide, calcium & a vita-amino mix from 'seachem' about every other day. Occasionally I add 'Seachem' Marine Buffer. My water stays clear & the residents all seem healthy.

Someone mentioned about peeps living in Aussie & Southern US parts having a unique water quality. The southern US part I would agree with for sure. I lived in Florida for a few years and had several freshwater tanks with Africans. I could do a 75% water change in a 55 with water straight out of the garden hose and everyone would be just fine. I moved to Kentucky a few years ago and tried that & managed to kill an entire tank of fish on a 20% change. Now it's strictly RO for my fresh & marine tanks.

 

Thanks Mojo.
Here in Texas if I use tap water everything would be dead.
I have 4 FW tanks still set up and use only RO/DI water and have NOT had any deaths since I started water changes with it. The breeding fish like the RO water and seem to breed more and faster.
As for marine I stay away from SeaChem products.