water change during cycling?

Both Tangster and Reefguru have always gone into depth on the chemistry, logtistics and the super natural of reefing and by no means am I an expert on anything. But I have always been taught never do a water change while cycling. The levels of NH3/4, No2 and No3 must raise and fall due to the birth of the specific bacteria to comsume each element. By doing the WC, your "capping" the possible bact. that can grow. In essence, your limiting the bact. level in your tank. Im I wrong in thinking this way?

 

RG,

Makes sense to me. I am convinced.

Thanks for post and clarification.

S

 

I never have and never will do a water change hell I cycled my tank with a fish in it right after I added salt to the system, and he was alive and very happy then and still is now. Seems like a lot of work with no real gain if you ask me, I mean mother nature doesn't do water changes on the Ocean does she . Yeah I have no scientific data to back up anything, just throwing my personal opinion out there, but I honestly how many times have scientists been wrong... Don't forget, at one time the Earth was the center of the Universe am I right ;D.

By all means do water changes as often as you want, during cycling, after its over, all the power to ya. I'm simply saying that from personal experience, and through the experience of others, I've found no need to do them.

I'm not trying to put anyone down or do any personal attacks, so please don't get that idea, but I've seen some absolutely beautiful tanks that don't have water changes done to them. Has anyone, honestly, tried a tank with water changes and one without to compare any distinct differences between the two? Because I'm pretty convinced that with the same equipment, same bio-load etc, you'd never know one had water changes and the other hadn't.

 

I'm an aquarium Hobbyist and not a junior scientist Thats all I am I base my methods on years and yrs of no failures and lots of tank set up's .. I am also very hard to impress with B/S never been one to just follow what someone else says ? some lead some follow . I have seen so many scientific theories and ideas come and go in the hobby as well as in life , As have the many numbers of people on this and several other sites who have read all the theory and ideas and still have a problem I get more e/m about I have this problem what do I do the Book or LFS or someone many would consider an expert said ? What ever I suggest on many yrs of experience must work they keep asking for advice .

I have been down this path long before with several so called book writing aquarium gods who where at that time preaching their teaching as new and improved and a perfect system , many jumped on their wagons then all of their little disciples lost aquariums big time Then hey Look the bottom line is I do not care what anyone does or does not do and even to a lesser extent as to how they go about doing it . I'm not here or the other sites I attend to impress anyone with what I have rad or cut and pasted or using language that they don't even understand trying to impress other. I'm just a simple old country boy who applies commonsense to what I do and it of works problem free why change ? As I said I'm very hard to impress And I leave try to impress to other's

But I have never had a system to Crash and burn nor any huge deaths or total wipe outs. What methods I apply to my hobby has worked well for me as I said for more yrs then many have been living . And it works well for many and all who have listened and avoided the many experts pitfalls and expenses of livestock loss and problem . I'll leave the expert scientific wanna be to others I don't have time.. So the bottom line is what i offer to help others is Free and to some thats all its worth. take it or leave it its you aquarium do what you will with them.. Its sunny warm and 70's outside and I have been cooped up in the house all winter enjoy I'm going back outside

 

I would agree with you about mother nature not doing WC, but we're not comparing apples with apples. Our tanks are not the same as the ocean, we're just try to re-create the ocean and its wonders.

 

I am sticking with advice from the Master, Anthony Calfo ()

Water Changes/Ex-changes, By Anthony Calfo

"Do not underestimate the need for superb water clarity. The expense of buying and operating specialized reef lights can be considerable... and discolored water reduces the penetration of light in to the aquarium."

"Quality filters and nutrient export products like protein skimmers can relieve some of the burden on water quality. But none can wholly replace the need for regular water changes"


Unless you have one of the best skimmers money can buy, accompanied by a well establish, efficient refugium, I would strongly recommend regular water changes, especially for newer or softie dominated tanks.


:-/

 

Maybe there is more than one way to skin a cat?!?!
I know that both methods have worked well for many people. The only question I have is who has taken things really slowly, used all base dead rock, and let the biological filter establish itself, and then have major problems because they did this? I have yet to find someone who has, so let me know if this has happened to you, I would like to ask some questions. On the contrary, I have heard of a lot of people who have had problems using live rock and doing water changes all the time. Not all have problems (Omard, this sentence is for you, your tank is beautiful!), but many have. I used a little LR to start my tank and wish I wouldn't have. I look at the pinhead sized peice of bubble algae everytime I look at my tank because it came on LR. I'm rambling on, so back to my question: who has had huge problems starting from scratch with minimal water changes (for short we'll call it the "Tangster Method!")?

 

I would have to say that I am also "old school" and believe alot of what tangster says, but not b/c he says it, but b/c I have exp'ed it first hand. I have never done a WC while cycling and it has worked for me. I dont see the point of doing a WC while trying to create the bacteria needed with proper filteration. In fact, I have stopped doing WC all together since 3 months ago and my corals look even better than before. Think about this, lets say that once a week your dosing cal, alk, mag and who knows what else trying to hit those magic numbers. And at the same time, your doing weekly WC, so your importing elements and at the same time, your exporting the same elements you just spend good money on. Havent you noticed that after the WC, your paras are lower than before you did the WC. So now, you have to dose again to get those numbers up again. Of course, this only makes sense if your keeping your numbers higher than NSW. If your numbers are the same as NSW, then WC are good for you. I dont know if all this makes any sense, but it makes sense to me. This doesnt mean that Reef Guru or anyone else doesnt know what their talking about, I think that RG knows his chit. Everyone does what has/is working for them. Luna

 

Good and very interesting topic this. I'm just gonna say that whatever anybody does, as long as it works for you then keep doing it. I have to also agree that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I find that my NSW levels are always a bit lower than what I want them to be, however I make any adjustments before I actually do the water change. This is by no means 100% accurate but it's pretty close and works for me!!

Finally I would like to say that I value everyone's opinion on this site, there are people here who have been in this hobby for years and I think it's great that they are willing to share their experiences and advice with everyone else (especially as they are not up their own a**). At the end of the day we all love this hobby otherwise we wouldn't do it, and we all strive to have a healthy and happy aquarium. Pat on the back all round then! ;D

 

luna:

your correct on the "cycling" process, to much of one element chokes the system. which is why when to much dKH is add the Ca drops and precipitation occurs, basically the system crashes. the same holds true with a toxic level of NH3,4. in doing a 20% water change the elements are not completely taken away, but what it does is keep the elements under the toxic state. basically, doing this actually helps the systems "cycle" and leaves enough room in the system for the elements to expand in numbers.



grotto:

i have run tanks for years without water changes that have flourished, the subject isnt water changes in general, the subject is a 20% water change when and only when the NH3,4 is 1 ppm or more during "cycling"

yes, through evaporation, rain, underwater mini salt volcanos



tangster:
you still didnt answer my question.

would reefkeeping post an article that didnt have any truth or facts about water chemistry? do you have any articles on there? enjoy the weather