water change during cycling?

Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by reef_guru, Apr 8, 2008.

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  1. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    there are some on here that promote NOT to do water change(s) during the "cycling" since it will lengthen the time of "cycling" and prohibit the correct bacteria to form. and then theres me. i have gone toe to toe with some people on this site that a 20% water change needs to be done during "cycling" when the NH3,4 reaches the toxic level of 1 ppm. the reason for this is the toxic level of NH3,4 will prohibit life. the names of these people are left out so im not to offend anyone. heres a link to help understand why a 20% water change needs to be done during "cycling".
    Reefkeeping 101 - Completing the Initial Set-up by Tom Murphy (aka WaterKeeper) - Reefkeeping.com
    and heres a portion of one of the paragraphs
     
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  3. Frizza

    Frizza Coral Banded Shrimp

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    I suppose it does depend on whether your rock is cured or not. I understand it will be necessary for uncured rock, but I doubt it is required vice versa. Just my 2 cents worth!
     
  4. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    no

    whether or not the rock is cured or uncured the toxic level of NH3,4 is still 1 ppm
     
  5. paulg

    paulg Feather Duster

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    Did I read something wrong in the article?.......I do believe he is talking about curing rock in vats outside the tank. Not cycling the tank itself, then after the rock is cured to place it in the display tank. Very good read though! I`m looking to add maybe another 20/30 lbs of LR in my display.
     
  6. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    correct, the same also applies to the rock inside a typical reef tank
     
  7. Tangster

    Tangster 3reef Sponsor

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    Are we talking Vat for curing Rock or the home aquarium ?

    the nitrogen cycle is simply bacterias that fish wastes and other decomposing organic matter (such as dead stuff on L/rock) is converted from Ammonia or Ammonium to nitrites to nitrates which are then either converted to free nitrogen by plants in the refugium or will be converted by de-nitrifying anaerobic bacteria Now I have cycled many tanks and I prefer the old way that this guy speaks of as something he had heard about like the wet/dry and so on but does not really know about them far to old technology? or just repeating what he has heard or read ? But I know form my experiences that changing water while a cycle is going on in the tank will just prolong the cycle .. Nothing I have read or repeated from stuff others have read and put into an article. Like this guy

    Quote ( As I have indicated, there is no cycle, per say, if live rock is used in a tank. All the bacteria needed are on the rock itself. What we do face is a curing period. That is the period when dead material on the rock is consumed and toxic organic production from the rock itself is brought into check. )


    No cycle per say ? what the hell does he think a cycle is ? l I think This is called a cycle LOL All the excess bacteria has to die off and will then reach sustainable colony sizes to be able to de-nitrify the surround water of ammonia and Nitrites and convert them into nitrates .

    Also the quote above is talking about Cycling Rock vats or rock filled aquariums ? There are only enough needed de-nitrifying bacteria at any given time need to handle the needed bio load. Be it rotting rocks and living or dead fish and animals or their by product from food ..

    Now I know from first Hand experiences of cycling tons upon tons of L/R just harvested from the gulf and its sat in vats that has a steady supply of saltwater from the gulf pumping through it 24/7 and or if they are not located close to saltwater supply they will keep it supplied to keep the die off form just fouling the entire rock vat curing set up alive.

    Everybody do what they will But I have seen to many arterials come and go from wet drys are Nitrate factory's to DSB are great and will totally sustain themselves to adding Vodka to to complete what the DSB can't up to L/R will make the system reef ready for corals and fish Right now today no waiting! B/S I knew better then and I still no better .
     
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  9. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    the concept of toxic NH3,4 holds true in a typical reef tank or vats as stated prior, every element in a system has a toxic level i.e. ( Mg, Ca, I, dKH, NO3, NO2 ), if the same holds true for all those elements, why not NH3,4?

    the LR will not be ready "right now", just as one should not do a 100% water change during "cycling". the process of "cycling" still needs its transition period.

    instead of stories show me scientific proof
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
  10. Airborneguy

    Airborneguy Flamingo Tongue

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    As to the guy who wrote the quoted article, what are his scientific credentials? I couldn't find them on the site.

    Furthermore, from my limited knowledge and what I read in that article, the curing of LR, which is what he is talking about, involves much more die off than the cycling of a home aquarium, which would lead to much more ammonia and other "junk" (as he refers to it as). Therefore, it would seem like water changes are necessary. Curing of LR does not entail preparing the vat as a home for fish, so he is not really talking about a cycle per se anyway.

    It is my understanding from everything I have read that doing water changes during the cycle would only remove the necessary contaminates which will attract and feed the bacteria you are trying to cultivate during the cycle. This is why the fishless cycle method has become so popular because you can overload with pure ammonia and not have to worry about fish being killed/maimed/stressed.
     
  11. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    from what i understand he doesnt have any, the scientific results pertaining to this subject were for tangsters answer.

    im not saying to do steady water changes during "cycling". only when the NH3.4 is 1 ppm should a 20% water change be performed. and the only test that really needs to be done during "cycling" is NH3,4. granted all other parameters will make the ride smoother for the system. in doing this the
    are still there but in the correct level and not a toxic state.
     
  12. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    tangster:
    can you give me a scientific reason behind your response other than "ive been doing it for years". maybe youve been doing it wrong.