Siphon rate off tank very slow

OK, now lets do a hypothetical- or actual power out.
If your return nozzle in the DT is near the top, and/or it has a siphon break hole drilled in it, only the water in the pipe from the return will go back to the sump- looks like no problem from your picture- hence, no need for a check vavle.

 

Additionally, what kind of issues can one expect to have a tank on a cement slab in a basement? Wont that make for a virtually unheatable sump? Cement sucking all the heat out of the water all the time.

This can't be the first time this type of configuration has been attempted. I'm not getting no flow, its just restricted flow.

 

The bottom of my DT is 10" above the bottom of my sump tank. The top of my DT is 18" above the top of my sump tank. So, that water all flows 'downhill' albeit not in a straight line. It's not feasible to have a straight downhill feed from my DT to my sump. It's in a different room, I have a staircase that is obstructing any path. The path taken is the highest path going to the sump area that I could take. if I can't make it continously downhill from the DT to the sump would I need some type of pump in between to the water up to the sump?

I can remove the check valve, everyone has determined it serves no value. but that is moot at this point, as the issue isn't with the supply to the DT.

 

What is happening when you shut the flow off and let the display fill a little further is you are building up additional head, in effect forcing the water to flow through the overflow. Once that head decreases, the elbows, changes of direction, ups and downs and the head loss or resistance to flow are too much for normal flow and it decreases.
Ideally you want a full pipe on the overflow, well really it is a precise mixture of water and air, so it flows smoothly. You will never achieve that with all the resistance in that circuit.
It needs to be a continous downhill flow with zero or at least minimal changes of direction and no uphills whatsoever. Down hill from the display to the sump all the way. Lower your sump so the rim of the tank is equal to the height of your bottom 90 degree PVC elbows coming through the wall. Remove and rotate the elbows so they point horizontally to the tank or slightly downhill and gravity flow to the sump. Better yet. move the sump over to the left so you can eliminate the 90 degree elbow and its restriction/headloss all together and run straight or slightly downhill to the sump. The fewer fittings and changes of direction the better and zero uphills such as the maniold and all the valves and fittings.

Never have two pumps such as you suggest! You will never ever find two pumps that will pump exactly the same, one will always create a flood while the other one starves. Even two identical pumps will differ plus one will get dirty faster and reduce flow etc. Keep it simple and let unrestricted gravity do the work of the overflow and the flow will match what the return pump produces guaranteed.

There is no reason you cannot set the sump on a small step or riser but not nearly as high as it is now. Get rid of all the plumbing and valves and keep it simple and laminar or smooth. If you must change directions, two 45 degree elbows are smoother than a single 90 degree elbow and a long radius sweep such as you see in electrical conduits and gravity sanitary sewer fittings are better still. Water does not like abrupt changes of direction in a gravity circuit.

You are not going to want to hear this but you would be better off with an Eshopps Hang on Back overflow box, plug your two bulkheads and remove the overflow box you have. With the HOB overflow you would have one or two U tubes moving water from the display over the edge to the extrenal box then straight down, with no changes of direction to the sump with almost no headloss or resistance to flow. I'm not sure but you might even be able to keep your internal overflow wier and place the HOB so it is hidden behind that and not visible from the front, but the bulkhead may be in the way of doing that?

The check valve still needs to go, it serves no purpose. You have tons of room in the sump and with your returns close to the surface you will only backsiphon a gallon or two before they are exposed to atmosphere and you create an air gap, the best form of backflow prevention known to man and which cannot be defeated since we all know ater cannot jump uphill. Check valves are for clean water applications, not a reef tank which is essentially a miniature wastewater treatment plant processing ammonia and nitrates, waste byproducts. It will fail guaranteed, no matter how much or when you service it , it will fail.

You have been receiving a lot of good advice from some long time reefkeepers, I have over 30 years in the hobnby myself and water and wasterwater treatment plants and systems are my 38 year profession, its all I have ever done so I have a good grasp of hydraulics and treatment processes. I would venture to say there are others here too with just as much experience offering advice.

 

First, welcome to 3reef BigDubb,

Second, advice from AZDRat is always solid.
Take it now or pay the watery price!

...I'll throw in a little constructive criticism...
It looks like you have already invested some time into your plumbing so I hate to say it but, it needs to go. It can go now, or it can go later when it'll be harder.

Like AZDRat said, I think you should try to build a Stockman out from the lower bulkhead and use the upper one for a return if you can fashion one in that small space (If not, you can buy a hang on return jet for like $10).

Keep the 2x4 frame your sump is one but take the legs off and sit it on the floor.
Next, it appears you'll need to drill two more holes in your wall :-/ as they will be higher than the top of your sump (no drain lines of the plumbing should go uphill after the overflow!) - or maybe you can find another lower sump on the cheap...

It appears you have 2 valves on your drain line. That's a no no.
If you want to feed the fuge, do it which a tee off your return. Not off your drain. (or buy a tiny little pump and pump it over from the drain section of your sump).

I concur with the check valve advice. The return jet in your display should be so close to the top of the water that when the return pump is shut off, your sump will\should be able to handle the amount which is back siphoned before the nozzle is exposed to air, breaking the siphon.

As much as you might not wanna do it, these are definitely easy fixes at this point.


-FB

 

Again, all, thanks for the feedback. Right now I'm looking for the least amount of impact, I'm loosing the confidence of the Mrs on this. I am truly hoping that this will be the last plumbing endeavor for this.

Here's what I plan on changing to get this to work.

Step 1: Change the stand for the sump tank. Move it to a 2" stand with Plywood on the floor.

Step 2: Add a T with a ball valve to my pump in my sump so I can get water flowing through my fuge and not have to rely on the drain from the DT.

Step 3: Drain tanks and keep water in a holding reservoir to make moving things easier.

Step 4: I have about 7" of tolerance that I can move the holes up. There is a staircase in the way to prevent me from going any further up. Move the supply and overflow piping up 7"

Step 5: Redo the plumbing on the back of the DT.
- Remove the check valve. Not necessary.
- Use 1" braided vinyl tubing from the wall to the tank for the supply. (Is this the best choice?)
- Redo overflow plumbing to take advantage of the new changes in configuration on the back of the tank. Remove the 90s. As I see it I can do a 90 up from the wall, then a 45 over to the overflow bulkhead.

Step 6: With the moving up of the pipes and moving down the sump I should have 1" clearance. Additionally the overflow will have no upward movement of water. I will position the sump directly below the overflow pipe that comes through the wall, and adjust the supply piping appropriately.

Am I missing anything on this?

I think if I do this I shouldn't have the need for an overflow box at this point. Is this correct?

Again, thanks all for the help.

 

Plug the upper hole in the display so you can construct a Stockman or Mini Maggie Muffler style compact standpipe in your overflow box. Move the sump return line to a corner or backusing something like a couple back to back 90 degree elbows to get up and over then your short piece of Loc Line and nozzle.

The standpipe is one of the most important changes to get a smooth laminar gravity flow and minimal noise.

 

Isn't the 90 inside with the hole drilled on the top a stockman pipe? or a durso pipe. This allows air in as well as allows for flow out.

If not, do you have an example of what I should be hoping to achieve?

 

No.
Here are a couple examples:
R. Durso's 180g - Ken Stockman Standpipe
Durso & Stockman Standpipe
Premium Aquatics - Aquarium Supplies
How to: Silence your Aquarium Overflow | Stockman Standpipe - YouTube
Hofer Gurgle Buster
The Maggie Muffler, an easy alternative to a Durso or Stockman modification

 

Sounds like a plan Dubb! You'll be 150% better off making those changes - and further more, doing it now.

I made a Hofer Gurgle Buster for my overflow box.
It took over a month before it quieted down (getting a good slime coat), and now it's makes very, very little noise.

Looking fwd to seeing this all redone and rocking!