question about ich

Discussion in 'Fish Diseases' started by Teknine, Feb 2, 2011.

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  1. Teknine

    Teknine Astrea Snail

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    ive read about this i thought about trying it but what about all the invertebrates.. the turbo snails and hermet crabs the copper will kill those and the live rock maybe even the sand wont it?
     
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  3. bernokarl

    bernokarl Astrea Snail

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    LIFE CYCLE:

    [​IMG]Ich is most often introduced into the aquarium or pond by adding new fishes or aquatic plants (Ich is not air borne). Tomites which have only recently attached themselves to the host will not be readily visible. It is good aquarium and pond keeping practice to isolate any new fishes for at least four days under close observation. For tropical fishes, maintain a temperature of around 75°- 80° F (24° C). Check carefully for the presence of any tell-tale white spots appearing on the skin of the fishes and treat them accordingly. If no white spots are observed on tropical fishes within four days at this temperature, they can be moved from isolation. Remember, fishes maintained at cooler water temperatures (such as pond fishes) will require longer isolation times.
    The visible stages of Ich are carried out within the host fishes' skin. The first stages are called trophozoites and are highly resistant to drug therapy. Trophozoites mature into trophonts and leave the host, falling to the bottom of the aquarium or pond. These mature trophonts release from 200 to 1,000 tomtits. These tomites move about looking for a host, which they must find within 2 to 3 days at 75° F (24° C) or they will die. Cooler temperatures will lengthen this time. IT IS THIS FREE SWIMMING STAGE that is most vulnerable to treatment. It is important to note that these intermediate stages may also attach themselves to plants/corals and be accidentally introduced into an aquarium or pond along with the new plants. Once the tomite attaches to the host, it matures and the cycle begins anew. The parasite forms a nodule under the skin or gill epithelium of the fish host. It constantly turns and moves under the skin, feeding on destroyed cells and body fluids. It continues to feed on the cells until it matures, causing damage to the skin tissue. This leads to osmotic stress, resulting in secondary bacterial or fungal infections.
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    How Ich Kills:

    The general thought as to how ich kills fish is the epithelium (the top layer of the gill cells) reacts to an Ich invasion by growing thicker, the result of this is a restriction of the oxygen flow from the water to the blood in the gills. The lamellae (respiratory folds of the gills) also become deformed, reducing the proper transfer of oxygen. The shear numbers of Ich trophozoites covering the gills also causes a mechanical blockage of successful oxygen transfer. These conditions combine to stress the fish by hindering respiration. The epithelial layer of the gill may also separate and cause loss of electrolytes, nutrients and fluids from the fish, making it difficult for the infected fish to regulate the water concentration in its body. Bacteria and fungus may also invade the fish more easily while it is stressed from the Ich infection.​
    Does Ich lay Dormant, or is Ich always present?

    Ich is NOT always present in an aquarium, despite many anecdotal claims made in forums, articles or by aquarium store employees (often to cover up for poor quality stock).
    I have conducted tests (and read others as well) where by I killed off any Ich (if there was any depending on the control group) and then subjected the fish to many stressors than commonly bring on Ich such as sudden temperature drops with NO resulting Ich outbreaks. It is important to note that the Ich protozoan cannot live outside water and if dried, its cell wall would collapse permanently destroying this single cell parasite so this point also makes migration of Ich from anything other than transport via infected fish impossible. This also goes for marine Ich (Cryptocaryon) which I almost never had problems with in tanks where all fish were carefully added and there were no previous outbreaks.

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    PREVENTION:

    As in many parasite caused fish diseases the fish may need to be stressed due to changes in environment, poor water conditions, stress from other fish to be susceptible to the parasite (this is not to say a perfectly healthy fish cannot get ich, only that often a foothold in a stressed fish is the starting point). Also, the parasites must be present in the aquatic environment (ich is not air borne). It is not unusual for an aquarium population to have a low level of ich infestation present but not be showing any signs of the disease. Then, once a new fish is placed into the system or a weak/stressed fish becomes the start point for an ich infestation gets a foot hold in the aquarium. Fish can sometimes carry the parasite and not actually be diseased. These carriers can shed the parasite into a new aquarium into which it is placed. If the fish in the new aquarium have never been exposed to the parasite, and they become stressed, they can develop the disease.
    Put another way, with healthy fish, they can usually produce enough mucous to prevent the ich tomites form getting started on the fish, but once these tomites get a foot hold on a stressed fish, even the healthy fish get overwhelmed.

    The health aquatic environment can play a major role in susceptibility to the ich parasites. High ammonia and nitrites severely stress a fish. Also long term nitrates above 50 ppm in freshwater or 30 ppm in saltwater can weaken the immune system in fish. Calcium is also often forgotten as an essential to fish health (including soft water fish such as Discus). Without calcium fish cannot carry out many osmotic functions and are more susceptible to disease, including ich infestations. In fact I have found much quicker response to treatment when adequate calcium is present in freshwater aquariums.
    For more information about Calcium and KH, please see this article:
    CALCIUM, MAGNESIUM, GH & KH IN AQUARIUMS

    A healthy, cycled aquarium (0 ammonia/nitrites; low nitrates) with a steady temperature and a GH above 100 ppm is less likely to develop ich, or when it does, a healthy aquarium will have a less serious and more easily treatable infestation.
    High DOC (dissolved organic compounds) can allow for a more serious infestation and hinder treatment by creating as less stable environment as to KH, pH, and poor Redox Balance, so a clean aquarium with little organic aquarium as well as good circulation is essential.

    Before you begin any treatment, make sure your water parameters are correct, otherwise this may just worsen the situation and make treatments ineffective and/or poisonous:
    *Ammonia- 0
    *Nitrites- 0
    *kH- 80 ppm or higher (depending on fish, marine much higher)
    *GH – 100 ppm or higher (again depending upon fish kept) for important electrolytes necessary during times of stress, especially an ich infestation

    If you are having problems with ammonia, Prime is an excellent product for de-toxification of ammonia and nitrites. Prime only changes the electron number in ammonia (NH4 to NH3) making ammonia less toxic, but ammonia will still show in ammonia tests.

    Changing 20% of your water before treatments is also helpful in an effective treatment.

     
  4. ezz1r

    ezz1r Feather Star

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    I had a similar issue and had to dose in the DT it brought a host of other problems which have seemingly been under control for the last month or so.

    Here we go ... LOL

    I'm partial to natural cures and for me adding garlic to the feedings IMO have helped..

    E
     
  5. pgoodsell

    pgoodsell Horrid Stonefish

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    If they are still eating soak their food in garlic and selcon and keep a eye on them they should be able to beat it on there own. If you must treat them NEVER USE COPPER IN A REEF TANK!!. You'll need to treat them in something else. Like a rubber maid tube or Hospital Tank like bernokarl suggested.
     
  6. bernokarl

    bernokarl Astrea Snail

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    Dont quot me but im pritty sure thay cant get it . But they can carry it , So I would thaink fresh water dips but if they cant get it ? Good Question .
     
  7. Teknine

    Teknine Astrea Snail

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    can changes in the salt level or the temperature to quickly/often cause ick BERN? because in your article it says "Ich is most often introduced into the aquarium or pond by adding new fishes or aquatic plants "
     
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  9. Teknine

    Teknine Astrea Snail

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    so that means they already had the ich to begin with at the store :( ?
     
  10. Renee@LionfishLair

    Renee@LionfishLair 3reef Sponsor

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    Who are "they"
     
  11. Teknine

    Teknine Astrea Snail

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  12. Teknine

    Teknine Astrea Snail

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    it was the blue tang that got it first and passed it on to the others but it didnt have ich when i got him im pretty sure of it i caused it :(