One and Only ?'s

Discussion in 'DrTim's Aquatics' started by Steno1911, Feb 1, 2012.

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  1. DrTim

    DrTim 3reef Sponsor

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    pink4miss - I think (no, I know) I have a ton more experience both with reef tanks and scientifically with these bacteria than you. Sorry to be so blunt but that's the truth. I did my Ph.D. on aquaria nitrifiers using PCR and the latest molecular methods and I have been growing these bacteria commercially for over 20 years.

    Most of what is written on forums and by the so called experts about nitrifiers is totally wrong - such as they are in the water - where is your proof? Mine was published in peer-reviewed science journals.

    At this point, since this is my forum I would like to ask you to stop posting your advice to Steno1911 as I believe you're just adding confusion to the issue. If Steno1911 wants to go with your advice he can PM you and you can take over.

    Thank you
     
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  3. pink4miss

    pink4miss Panda Puffer

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    good luck steno1911
     
  4. DrTim

    DrTim 3reef Sponsor

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    Steno1911 - let's go back a little. What test kits are you using and are they measuring the ion form of ammonia and nitrite or are they measuring both as nitrogen. This should be in the instructions. Sorry if this is getting more confusing!

    Also yes, adding another bottle will help but if the nitrite is high it will still slow down the process. So getting the nitrite down is the first order of business.

    The nitrite has to come from one of two sources - either ammonia is converted to nitrite (nitrification) or nitrate to nitrite (denitrification). Generally, in a new tank denitrification is not occurring so that leaves nitrification as the most feasible reason for the nitrite.

    The reason the ammonia is not seen is that those bacteria grow much faster in saltwater. So you have a good population of the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria. The nitrite-oxidizing are slow growing to begin with and when you add in the high nitrite level that grow even slower.

    So changing water, adding more good, cured LR and some more bacteria is a good way to go.
     
  5. Steno1911

    Steno1911 Plankton

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    Dr. Tim,

    1. The test kits I used are all from Salifert. The LFS had what I believe is API.
    No clue on the second part of the question. I will have the check when I get home.

    2. I will do a water change / add some LR / and add the extra bottle of bacteria and report back in a few days.
     
  6. Beachbreak

    Beachbreak Spanish Shawl Nudibranch

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    If it's OK I'd like to piggy back on your thread as I'm having issues as well.

    I started a fishless cycle using Dr. Tims ammonia in conjunction with "one and only" not this past Monday but the previous Monday (1/30/12). Both items were purchased directly from you guys. I dosed all of the 16oz bottle to my 180 display tank with 60 gallon refugium (I estimate about 200 total gallons of water involved). I then dosed 10 ml of ammonium chloride (per the directions) that first night. The next night and for the next week I dosed half doses (5 ml) per the directions. On the 5th day I tested and I had zero nitrates but both ammonia and nitrite were extremely high. I figured I was on schedule. I tested again on Tuesday and I was at 2 ppm ammonia and what looks like 5 nitrite. Today, I am at the same levels. Needless to say I have quit dosing but after reading this I am a little scared that I have stalled my cycle.

    I too am using BRS ecorocks.

    Any advice? Are there any resins/media I can buy to reduce the nitrite?

    Doing a 100% WC is not really something I want to do. At all. 200 gallons at a 4/1 rejection ratio on RO/DI systems = 1000 gallons. Not to mention salt.
     
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  7. Beachbreak

    Beachbreak Spanish Shawl Nudibranch

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  9. DrTim

    DrTim 3reef Sponsor

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    Ok, let's deal with Steno1911 first. I should have caught this earlier! I assumed (not good) that when Steno1911 was saying his nitrite was over near or over 4 he meant 4 mg/l nitrite-nitrogen (or 4 ppm NO[SUB]2[/SUB]-N). These are the units I always use and most people use so it didn't occur to me to ask earlier which test kit he was using.

    However, as he replied Steno1911 is using the Salifert kit. This is a fine kit but it does two things - it is set-up to measure really low concentrations of nitrite and it measures/reports the value as the nitrite ion - NO[SUB]2[/SUB] not NO[SUB]2[/SUB]-N.

    What's the difference - a lot! and it has been causing Steno1911 to bang his head against the wall!

    Here is a copy of the Salifert Instructions

    [​IMG]

    As they say - the reading are in ppm nitrite and if you want the more common units of nitrite-nitrogen you have to multiple by 0.3. So Steno1911 reading near 4 is actually 1.2 mg/L (close enough to ppm) NO[SUB]2[/SUB]-N. Which is much lower than what I was assuming of 4 mg/L NO[SUB]2[/SUB]-N.

    Also this test kit has an upper value of 1.2 ppm of nitrite or (1.2 x 0.3) 0.4 ppm nitrite-nitrogen. So basically any amount of nitrite above 0.4 is going to be impossible to read whether it's 0.8 or 2.0 or 4.0. So it is really hard to know if your nitrite is coming down because it always looks really high.

    Ok - so maybe I have lost some people. What the heck are you talking about DrTim - nitrite ion or nitrite-nitrogen ?$?$&$&*$#??

    Ok, it's the units. Think of it like this - identical pieces of wood are sent to you and a friend in Europe and you're both asked to measure the length of the wood. You say it's 10. You friend says no it's 25. Why the difference? You measured in inches (english units) and your friend measured in centimeters (metric). The pieces are the same length but your values are different because you're each using a different scale.

    In the case of the nitrite - the most common scale is nitrite-nitrogen NO[SUB]2[/SUB]-N (with the base unit value of 14 - the relative mass of nitrogen). If you measure as the nitrogen ion NO[SUB]2[/SUB]- the base unit value is 14 + (2 times 16 [the relative mass of oxygen]) = 14 + 32 = 46.

    14/46 = 0.3 -- where have you seen that number? In the instructions of the kit which said to convert from the nitrite ion to nitrite-nitrogen multiple by 0.3 - now you know why.

    Ok, back to Steno1911 and how does this help him? First, it means that it is very hard for him to know if his nitrite is going up or going down because the kit is very sensitive (again, I am not bashing the kit, I sell them so I should have caught this earlier).

    At this point he has a few choices - adding more LR and bacteria and wait, get another test kit that measures higher values so he can tell what is happening or get some DI or distilled water and dilute his tank water and then use the salifert kit (now to be really exact you would use nitrite-free seawater but he's not running a lab). So how to dilute - take one ounce of tank water and add one ounce of DI water and stir well. Now take a portion of that and do the test. When you get the results multiple them by 2 to get the actual nitrite value. As least way he'll know if his nitrite is going up or down.

    Lastly, here's where units and manufacturers can get really confusing.

    Here is the salifert ammonia instructions

    [​IMG]

    Here they state that the units are
    but the problem is the relative mass of NH3 does not equal the relative mass of NH4+ and you could use either and neither equals the relative mass of ammonia-nitrogen (which because the base unit is nitrogen is 14). You can assume that since they said ammonia they mean NH3 but we all know what assuming can get you. So I really don't know how to convert the ammonia to ammonia-nitrogen in the case of this test kit.

    Cheers all.

    Hope this helped.
     
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  10. DrTim

    DrTim 3reef Sponsor

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    beachbreak -

    First, I better ask - are this values in the nitrogen base?! I'm going to assume so but please tell me if otherwise.

    First, I am asking this question but not accusing you of anything, I say this because I don't want it to be interpreted wrong - so. Where in the directions does it say add ammonium chloride for 9 days in a row?

    If we say that it needs to be changed. In our quick guide we say

    I don't believe we have said to add ammonia everyday but no matter you have basically stalled the cycle by adding too much ammonia. The ammonia-oxidizing bacteria (AOB) work faster and replicate faster than the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (NOB) and even though we try to have more NOB than AOB in our mix to counteract this you will always get the AOB producing nitrite faster than the NOB can handle it. So you have to add the ammonia based on the amount of nitrite in the water not the amount of ammonia.


    There are no resins that work and the liquids that say they can get rid of nitrite in water are wrong. They may masks the nitrite so your test kit does read it but they are still there.

    I understand - at this point you just have to wait until the nitrite drops. The NOB are not dead just working very very slowly but they will catch-up. Once the nitrite drops add say 5 ml ammonia and see what the ammonia/nitrite values are 24 hours later. Don't add more ammonia until the nitrite is near zero, say below 0.5 mg/L NO[SUB]2[/SUB]-N. It should 5 to 7 days.

    Cheers

    DrTim
     
  11. cosmo

    cosmo Giant Squid

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    owe! Myy brain hurts and is full of alot more knowledge than i wanted! WoW dr tim! i need to dumb down after that! gonna cost me money ordering things if i let that sink in!;)
     
  12. Beachbreak

    Beachbreak Spanish Shawl Nudibranch

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    Sorry if I was unclear - I added the full amount of ammonia the first day, then half doses for the next 5 days. On the 7th day I figured that something was not working right and quit dosing ammonia. My tests on days 5, 7, 8, 9 were all like above. I haven't tested yet today.

    Here is where I got my dosing instructions:

    Per your website:
    "The procedure is to add the ammonium chloride solution, shake the bottle of nitrifying bacteria well and add it to the aquarium. Measure ammonia and nitrite the next day and record. Add ½ dose and wait 24 hours and measure again. By day 5 to 7, you should be able to add 1 drop per gallon and the next day ammonia and nitrite will be 0."

    I added 1 full dose on the first night and half doses for the next 6 nights. With the instructions above I should have been able to add a FULL dose (1 ml per 20 gallons or 1 drop per gallon) of ammonia by day 5-7. Due to my test results I didn't add that full dose because my numbers were all wrong. I'm on day 10 now and basically at a stand still.

    What went wrong here?

    What do I do?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012