Low alk / high calcium problem solved!

Got up this morning and something hit me. I made an error  :-[ I re-edited the long post.  I had Reef Builder and Reef Buffer backwards.

The reason you guys are seeing a big  difference between the two, especially in Alk, is the Buffer is mostly Soda Ash, where the end buffer is CO3 --, which is a double negated anion, where Bicarbonate, in the Builder, is mostly HCO3-and a single negated anion. Take note the Bicarb has an H and the H in pH = Hydrogen. The more H the lower the pH and the less affect it will have on Alk. This is why in tests you will often see the pH drop first with Bicarb's until the CO2 is "blown-off", where it will then rise slowly. And the  Reef Buffer will also have a much greater impact on the pH

Carbonate or SeaChem Buffer is CO3-- and Bicarb's HCO3, Builder will have a large dif if one used the same amount. A double negated anion will have about twice the impact as a single negated anion in Alk. In short, CO3-- will raise the Alk 2 equivalent units and CO2 1 equivalent unit . A single negated anion, like bicarb, will raise the alk 1 equivalent unit and the CO2 1 equivalent  unit.

If this sounds confusing, think of it this way. You all know what Hydrochloric Acid is and Sulfuric Acid is HCl and H²SO4. And I'm sure you know the Hydrochloric Acid, H²SO4 will lower the pH faster than the HCL. Take note here that the Sulfuric Acid H²SO4 has 2 H and the Hydrochloric Acid , HCL has 1 H, so same thing the Sulfuric will have a much greater impact on pH and Alk

It was at 1.023, now its at 1.024, soon to reside at 1.025. <--(natural seawater) YES??

My P.H. always seems to be low sometimes it hits 8.0 or lower. When I try to add the buffer to correct this, I have to watch my alk. Once it even got up to 5.0 witch was a little scary but nothing bad happened


Yes, 1.025 if your tank temp is around 82 F or so.

Yes, higher Alk as the Buffer has a very large impact on Alk, as it is mostly Soda Ash NaCO3. This Buffer should bring your pH up also, but isn't, so I would suspect you have a CO2 issue somewhere. Try using outside air. For now take a gal of your water and aerate it over night heavily and check in the morning to see if the pH has risen (use outside air if possible,as you may have a room air CO2 problem)

 

Thanks for the update Boomer. Would you be kind enough to review these threads and provide your comments?

Seachem Reef Builder
http://www.3reef.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Product&action=display&num=1052972447

Seachem Reef Plus
http://www.3reef.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Product&action=display&num=1052972447

Thanks again!

 

That 1.025 would be if the hydrometer is calibrated to 75F, would be about 35 ppt

 

Craig

Some how I could see this question coming

Gald you asked it [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

Most is Ok BUT.....well, the Buffer and Builder are Ok

One of the beautiful things I like about Seachem's products is that they are so closely balanced and optimized to work together (synergistically).  This is not only true for Reef Complete and Reef Calcium, but it is true for every additive Seachem makes.  It is certainly NOT true for other manufacturers, who seem to make their products to "stand alone" on their own.    

I don't like the idea of Reef Complete at all. This is nothing more than CaCl, "Turbo-Calcium". You should not use this to sup for Ca. It is OK for a "one-shot deal", over 5 days or so to get the Ca up to where you want it, after that STOP using it. Same for Turbo-Calcium. Reason, it will give false Salinity/SG values, if you use it on a continuous bases how.......of the 35 ppt NSW Salinity, 19 ppt is Cl -. That means ever time you use it you are adding to the Cl - level, which will increase over time, creating a ionic imbalance, as it is basically not used, such as Alk or Ca, Mg. Meaning, most of the salinity will be do to Cl -. Pretend you are adding table salt to your tank every day but had a Sodium filter (no such thing, so just pretend) Would you do that ?

Reef Calcium

It is a nice idea but as a number of us have pointed out you are adding polygluconate complexed calcium. Why add more organics in the for of sugar ??? There is also no proof that id does what it says. It was a nice idea by Dr. Leo Morin (god rest his soul). The issue with all sup is to stay simple. The more complicated things get the worse off you are. Kalk, simple.........Baking Soda simple.... Washing Soda simple....... no "bells and whistles" with these and is the choice of every marine biologists and chemist in this hobby I can think of. It has been a bad habit in this hobby to make things complicated, especially products. I use to push SeaCherm for years until I began to learn things, mostly from Craig Bingman.

Reef Plus

No, regular water changes will take care of these "iodide, bromide, molybdenum, iron, manganese, cobalt, potassium, etc." There are times when one **may** want to add iodine or iron.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/chem.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/chem.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/aug2002/chem.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/oct2002/chem.htm

Wrass uses Randy as a ref. Randy would not agree with much of what is said here. He doesn't use these multi-sup's, either does Craig, Habib or Bomber (Jerel). I did until I was straight out by Craig years ago on the RAMR newsgroup.

Could  you or someone use these and be successful, sure but why when there is no need ? And it is not just SeaChem but many companies. I have always liked SeaChem and the people there. I think they and their products have good intentions, other companies don't, just money. Many of these products have been out for years...so how do you drop a product and explain yourself......don't, just defend it at all costs ?

The issue is that many companies are going to lose customers, when they can go buy "snow melt" for  Turbo-Calcium or Arm and Hammer Baking soda for a buffer (especially if you just trying to lower the Ca).

 

Thank you so much Boomer. I will let you now know that I did not use the Seachem products in a regular dosing scheme. Someone else, I think it was my chemist buddy, warned me about the ionic imbalance, and as you mentioned above, with regular water changes I didn't find the need (after testing) to dose as my CA & Alk parameters were in balance.

I know Steve, aka Wrassman, has good intentions and a tremendous amount of reef knowledge, but it is good to have a second viewpoint as well.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

 

Your Welcome Craig [smiley=thumbs_up.gif]