Ich Issue need some help.

Discussion in 'Diseases' started by jgutierrez84106, Mar 2, 2011.

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  1. jgutierrez84106

    jgutierrez84106 Plankton

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
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    Hi everybody, I have a issue with ich and I need some advise on where to go from here. It has been a long road and I have a few questions to bounce off everybody. I have become overly frustrated with ich in my tank and I at a breaking point !!!! Its a long issue so bare with me

    I have 125 gal reef tank with a 60 gal sump ( 30 gal fuge ) I have been building up slow. tank is about 9 months old and all chemistry stable.
    I have about 60 lbs of live rock and only about 1-2 inch of live sand.

    I set up the tank and had it fallow for about 6 months ( figured allow a good cycle to let everything get stable ) after I introduced my first fish ( flame goby ) couple weeks after a diamond goby.couple weeks after added a fox face. The fox face developed ich and died about a week later.
    since then, every fish I have added has died from ich.

    My LFS seems to have a different "cure" depending on who you talk to.

    started keeping a very close eye on "stress" causing problems. chemisty, stray voltage,aggressive tank mates, etc etc. I really can not pin point anything. have lost many fish inbetween ( Domino Damsel, Chromis and anther fox face) Tried hyposalinity brought it down slow to about 1.019 and 1.018, until inverts started showing signs of being unhappy. raised temp to 80 and treated with ich-attack ( which helped prolong the fish's death and reduced symptoms but only by treating at 3 times recomended dose_ about 1 1/2 mL per 1 Gallon)

    spent $250 on UV sterilizer, which was another "cure " NO change in survival rates

    introduced a copperband butterfly ( was not eating great, but LFS said he was eating great in the store) died of ich. This prompted a QT tank. 10 gal that was set up for about 5 weeks with water from a healthy tank.

    In that time- Nothing new in the tank, fish, live rock, nothing

    The tank looks healthy and no new problems. The orginal fire fish and diamond goby look great ! and no flashing, rubbing on aquascape, no visible signs of ich on the fire fish ( diamond goby is white, cant really see ich on him except fins I guess )

    Finally the kicker..... Brough home a unicone rabbitfish, he was QT for 21 days and treated with FW dip and general meds to insure no infections.
    24 hours after he introduced into DT... bam.... ich all over. fished him out and QT him again for another 21 days. treated him with Copper and Rid ich. Reintroduced and .... you guessed it !

    ? why is the fire fish and diamond goby still healthy ( I though t maybe bcs they sleeo in the substate ? and that helps with ich )

    ?what do I do know, pull everything out and rebuild the tank ? or change the replace sand with new

    ?do I pull all 3 fish and QT them, allowign the display tank to be fallow for 2 months or so ?

    ? Do I go with fresh water !!!! ( half way considered it )

    ? could the ich be " surviving" off the diamond goby and Fire fish and just attacking the new additions ?

    Please help !!! any advise would help. This has been an issue for about 6 months and we are ready to throw in the towel.

    ? somebody want a reef tank for free !!!

    Jonathan :confused:
     
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  3. TMWTim

    TMWTim Spanish Shawl Nudibranch

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
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    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    I think you are spot on with looking at stress as the problem. I'll wait for the 'pros' to chime in but that would be my guess. Ich is present in any marine environment and it only becomes a problem when stress weakens a fish to the point where ich can grab ahold and go to town. I have never ever been a fan of treating a reef with any sort of chemical. 99% of the time the cure to ich will be found in the cause which generally can be found in the owners reef itself. Again, ich is there regardless. The chore is to figure out why it attacks a particular fish so fast, if at all.

    I am also not a huge fan of QT tanks when it comes to ich. The reason is the same as I explained. For example: I have taken a fish with ich out of it's tank and placed it in another tank and POOF, ich gone the next day. Put said fish back in the original tank and ich comes back. Put two and two together and you can do process of elimination...what is different in the first tank that is upsetting the fish that isn't present in the 2nd tank. If that makes sense. Taking a fish from a reef environment and putting it in a 10g 'QT' that is medicated...I am not seeing how this can be good (Now I am taking ich and only ich).

    LFS...this is a touchy subject that I don't want to get in to that much. They are there to make money. Some will tell you anything to sell a product and some will refuse to sell you anything until they know all about you problem. Some will sell fish the day they get them from the wholesaler while some will QT them for a few days to determine if they are eating and appear healthy. Some will sell you chemicals for a reef, for ich, while some will forgo the quick sale and really get involved with getting to know your problem. Some will sell you a copperbanded BF for a reef and some won't. It is a toss up with each LFS and it will depend on whom you talk to at each store. I love my LFS as they make it obvious what new livestock has come in as they are all in QT in DT in the store for all to see. They allow you the option to buy a fish and leave it with them for as long as you want to insure you have a healthy specimen. Regardless, when it comes to ich it is going to come down to your tank being healthy for said fish. A great tip to figure out what kind of SW/reef LFS you are dealing with, ask the person helping you whether or not their SW tanks have ich in them. When they say 'no'...well.....

    Anyway, I would not tear the tank down and rebuild. No way.

    Fallow....when it comes to ich it really doesn't matter. If your DT isn't set up to a particular fishes liking then ich may rear it's ugly head whether 2 months or two years. Again, ich is there regardless.

    Don't throw the towel in. What I would do if I were you is to take a good amount of time and help us help you. Take some serious amount of pics of your setup. Take pics of your tank, sump and everything. List your lighting, skimmer, how much you feed, your current tankmates including a mantis that might be scaring the crap out of fish late at night, a high powered pump that is sucking the unknowing around the tank...everything you can think of. Run a battery of tests. Leave nothing out. Test everything from pH to KH.

    Anyway, that is what I would do but I am sure others can help you out.
     
  4. trapstar991

    trapstar991 Feather Duster

    Joined:
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    Location:
    philadelphia pa
    your not leaving the tank fishless to help the numbers of ich parasites go down your basicly putting fish into a diseased tank
    copperbands dont survive in captivity all that often
    if you killed a damsel i believe that you have other issues with the water chemistry they can survive nuclear war
    uv is only helpful in a fishless tank because the free floating pathogens will go thru the uv at one point or another and be destroyed
    did you properly diagnose the tank? it might be velvet or possibly a more defensive strain of ich
    the tank needs to run empty and maybe even a full replacement of the sand bed its controversial if ich can lay dormant velvet however cannot its a faster killer but with time can be taken care of
    reading back now you never can dose meds with a uv sterilizer on i would start the tank fresh,100% water change new sand all live rock fresh water dipped for 72 hours dried and recured in all honestly youll keep losing fish if you can kill a damsel you might have a breakdown of a medication because of your sterilizer
    thats my opinion though maybe someone else can help
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  5. tank1970

    tank1970 Bubble Tip Anemone

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    I feel your pain I lost 2 sailfins almost the same way - the first time I QT - the second time I did not. I figured it was my clown fish doing the stress - also My salinity was not stable due to bad hydrometer (now have refractometer) so I did find the stress. I have to agree with "tim" about QT even though it's not the popular way. (I always coralrx all my coral tho)
    My second sailfin loss was due to the lfs just getting it in the day before (my bad)
    I love this hobby and when it works it is very satisfying - IMO and I am just going with 6 months of experience and a ton of reading and a few mistakes.
    I would suggest that having the tank with a very low bio load - and adding a large fish (extra food/poo) might have been the stress (prams up and down) the bacteria takes time but will die if there is nothing to feed off. I also went very slow with a small bio load and caught a fluctuation in ammonia and nitrogen over a week when adding a new fish minor but was there.
    So a few things could be happening - fish not sold correctly from the lfs - adding a large fish that is stressed easy - just a maturing of the aquarium.
    I hope you don't lose hope b/c when it works it's an amazing hobby and rewarding. Please keep us updated.
     
  6. destinationluna

    destinationluna Skunk Shrimp

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    I have been there a few things that helped me was that there are many ways to kill ich! Many people do it a diffrent ways than others. One thing with this is you need to find the best way for you to do it. Like was said above slow is good always and this is one thing that I have used in the past to deal with this issue and it seems to be working. How I did this is Made the fish so healthy that he is virtualy immunte to ich. I use spectrum food with some mysis and for my tangs the best veggies money can buy! All of this i treat with a garlic extract that you can buy at GNC or any health food store. It seems to be doing the trick!

    I also added a UV to the tank but this really will only be as good as what flows through it. Have heard it will kill the parisite but if they dont flow through it then it really is not gonna do anything. But there are other good uses for this equipment so I chalk it up to Multiple uses for this tool! Algae, Bacteria, Parisites, Ect they might not flow though it but it will limit the numbers when some flow through but again this only works when there in there free floating stage of there life cycle!

    My advise would to be get your fish healthy as you can get your water and good as you can and then work from there! Also pick yourself up a few skunk cleaners shrimp if your fish are smart they will let him do his work! And he will pick them clean
     
  7. trapstar991

    trapstar991 Feather Duster

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    i dont think that the real problem has been addressed from anyone other than me not to sound cocky but i dont think the right people are reading this thread wheres steve when you need him,a firefish would not survive ich for 6 months even with a form of immunity its much to fragile of a fish and immunity only lasts so long
     
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  9. Corailline

    Corailline Super Moderator Staff Member

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    It is a dry heat, yeah right !
    Sure hope it works out for you, very frustrating and disappointing. And your right, the topic of marine ich is rich with confusion and conflicting information.
     
  10. tank1970

    tank1970 Bubble Tip Anemone

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    I do agree with you on having a fish less tank if the ich has over run the system. I don't think it has from the op description - I just gave my experiences and shared.
    I also agree that garlic seems to work (I know there is no real proof) but it did work for my flame.
    I have Qt all but 2 fish (I have 5 in total) (two died one QTed)

    The funny thing is I had fish get ich every time I qt'ed - the last two only one got it and the ick was gone in 1 day - this is my experience;)


     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  11. Corailline

    Corailline Super Moderator Staff Member

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    It is a dry heat, yeah right !
    Public forum, everyone is able to offer their assistance, regardless of if you find it of assistance or relevant. Anyone that reads this thread and offers assistance is the right person, it is up to the op to garner what is of value to his individual situation.
     
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  12. tank1970

    tank1970 Bubble Tip Anemone

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    As Corailline put it so eloquently ;)

    I only gave my opinion from experience - I personally look for help here all the time and back it up with reading. I pride myself on not commenting on subjects I have no knowledge or experience on. There are very knowledgeable people here that had different experiences. what works for one will not work for all.
    There is a ton of info on Ick and it's cycle (those are facts) but how each person deals with it or manifests it's self can be unique. I just hope that you are able to work it out with info from 3reef and enjoy the hobby.

     
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