I wish some one would come up with a better formula than the watt per gallon

Discussion in 'Reef Lighting' started by guidedbyechoes, May 28, 2011.

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  1. sostoudt

    sostoudt Giant Squid

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    If you search around enough there are PAR guidelines. It's not always great and kind of scarce but it exists for some coral types. I agree with your points, but he asked for something better and I gave it to him. ;)
     
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  3. Mr. Bill

    Mr. Bill Native Floridian

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    True. We have what we have. But I'd like to raise a question...

    I've read a few books and online blogs from divers/collectors, and they all have the same story-- you can find most popular corals up to 30m deep, including some very colorful Acroporas. At that depth, the lighting is rather dim and mostly blue. So now, unless you know for certain that a specific specimen is aquacultured, where you can rely on the care sheet, the lighting is anyone's guess. And guessing that it's aquacultured just because someone said most specimens sold are aquacultured doesn't cut it. Go to any online sw/reef supplier and see for yourself how small their "aquacultured" offerings are compared to their regular stock. It's for certain that eventually corals can be acclimated to much more intense light, but there is no scientific data on how quickly. We do know, however, that in nature, it takes several hundred years for them to grow from the depths to the surface. And to this day, wild specimens do not come labeled, "surface, 5m, 10m, 15m, etc, etc.

    I do softies, mushrooms and polyps, mostly because I don't have the space, time or patience to be constantly fragging stonies. When I first started adding corals to my 29g-h, I had 1 65w PC 50/50 fixture. A few months later I added a 2-bulb 35w T5. In the first day, everything closed up. After two days with everything closed, I removed the T5. My softies and mushrooms recovered a couple days later. My zoas and buttons never did; they had to be replaced...

    My closest LFS had done very well with T5s over all their tanks. Then they decided to build a special tank for their SPSes using MH lighting (2-250w fixtures over a 75g tank). Needless to say, they soon started a new trend-- selling coral skeletons for decoration. They were losing more than 50% of their stock in that tank.

    So now, finally, the big question: How many reefers are killing their pets with too much light?

    Bonus question: Do you even know, or are they just dying for "no apparent reason"?

    IMHO, corals are like most any other photosynthetic life form, plant or animal- they can thrive on less light and more food. They will let you know if they need more light by the way they grow. However, they will perish in very short time if the lighting is too intense...
     
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  4. sostoudt

    sostoudt Giant Squid

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    Corals definitely need to be light acclimated and It is very possible to go over board with lighting. It's better to start them low then move them up.

    I believe corals get alot more food in the wild then we could ever provide in our tanks, mainly do to rising nitrates and phosphates. Coral reefs are very rich in food. So they must rely more on lighting then other foods in our tanks.
     
  5. guidedbyechoes

    guidedbyechoes Spaghetti Worm

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    I'm just trying to weigh pros and cons. Would the two t5HOs eliminate my need for the pc or do I still need it as well? Also what wattage t5s would I need? I only ask because given the recommendation to use LEDs which given the information from this thread I would need somewhere in the range of 30. Which would be 30 watts. And it would also give me in the area of 5 years before replacement.

    Pricing it it the leds would be somewhere in the 3-400 dollar range to build. The t5 being much cheaper, but using more power and costing close to what I would pay for building the led fixture in bulb replacement.

    What I was referring to at the beginning of the thread about the watts per gallon thing... I was wondering if a watt was a watt. Meaning if I had a 150 watt metal halide would it be the same as having 150 watts of t5 light. I am aware that MH penetrate more deeply. But I am wondering is : Ts 150 watts of mh the equivalent of 150 t5 in lumen output? I'll use a foot below the surface as a reference point.

    -disclaimer- In the rest of this post I try to explain how I equate sound amplification to different lighting sources.:-X

    I'm trying to understand difference so bare with me. The 3 different light types are quit similar to 3 different types of guitar amplifiers. MH being similar to a vacuum tube amp.(Been around forever and has proven its place a multitude of times) Solid state which came after and suited for a wider range of applications, and has less perceived volume( its doesn't produce quite the same frequencies as the tube so more wattage is needed to get the same effect. And led is like the modelers( They are the most flexible of the group but the good ones are really good and have the price tag to go with it but still have limitations. The output is great for smaller areas but as leds the more volume they have to penetrate the clarity is lost. ) As the name suggests like leds modelers try to provide similar qualities of mh light without the shear output of energy. Akin to how modelers try to output the same tonal qualities but with out all of the volume.

    I hope there are some guitar players in here.:-/
     
  6. sostoudt

    sostoudt Giant Squid

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    a watt is a unit of energy consumption not light output. Just like wattage in the speaker work is not equal to decibels. So some fixtures give you more output for your energy input.

    Also just as watt and decibels are not equal to quality of sound, lumens and watts aren't directly connected to the quality of light. This means buying bulbs is very important, only get good brands. No matter how good the amp is, you put crappy speakers on it will sound crappy.



    here is the line up from best to worst.

    A) LED, will easily bet out all the others eventually however manufacturers are still playing around with these, and quality reviews of fixtures are rare. Every thing below is proven and has well documented reviews.

    1)T5 HO(usually have better quality light output for the power consumption then halide)
    2)Halide(although it can reach depths t5 can't, such as below 2 feet and a handful of inches, they also make 1000w versions of these, just incase you get a little reef crazy)
    3)PC (don't buy this anymore for your display tank)

    most people say t5 is roughly twice the light out put of PC. With the corals you listed you would only need 2 T5 HO, if you put them relatively high in the tank, if you want higher light corals I would definitely go for 4 T5HO fixture, and put the corals you mentioned near the bottom.


    Honestly I don't do any rules anymore, I just know what will support what now. I can tell you if you buy a quality Halide or T5 fixture and you use the 4 WPG rule you will definitely have enough light for what ever you want on a standard depth tank.
     
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  7. guidedbyechoes

    guidedbyechoes Spaghetti Worm

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    Thank you that makes perfect sense. :cheesy:
     
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  9. Dingo

    Dingo Giant Squid

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    And then people realized that PAR was not the whole story and we started measuring specific spectral output.

    Except you and I dont have the couple thousand dollars to spend on a quality spectrophotometer... so we have to settle for PAR and hope that a majority of the light that we are picking up is actually from the desired wavelengths ;)

    The end.
     
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  10. guidedbyechoes

    guidedbyechoes Spaghetti Worm

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    Where do you recommend going for bulbs? I want to see if the bulb replacement cost will be vastly more than the cost of doing the leds.
     
  11. khowst

    khowst Bangghai Cardinal

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    bulb costs vs led purchase is still highly debated. Let's take my tank for example since I have been evaluating taking the LED plunge.

    A DIY LED setup for my tank is going to take around $500 roughly, and thats a set up that should make SPS do-able. LED's last estimated 5 years.

    I currently have a 4 x T5 set up. Now they say replace bulbs on average around once a year. That would total roughly $400 for the same amount of time in bulb replacement. A 4 x T5 set up isnt even hardly cutting the mustard for SPS with a 6 x T5 being recommended.

    When you factor in MH bulb costs then yes LED's are attractive.

    I'll be honest and say I dont know how to calculate electric bill costs between MH,T5 & LED but it that amount is breaking the bank on this hobby I dont know what to tell you.

    Physical costs aside keep in mind that LED technology is an emerging technology. Its about like a computer the one you buy this week is an old model next week. At the same time LED for aquarium use is growing just as fast.

    I think in time you'll see LED's become predominate in this hobby but I think at this time it is still growing, worth exploring but its not the end all be all people are hoping just yet.
     
  12. guidedbyechoes

    guidedbyechoes Spaghetti Worm

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    Yes I understand that. In my case with going to the LEDs I have three options that are possible. This being I have less area to illuminate. With the led setup I can do the 30 one watt with optics setup and not run them at full power to get more life out them.

    Another cost cutting option a friend came up with is using a lot more of lower wattage leds in the same color spectrum. We found them in the correct white color but the royal blues are proving a bit harder. In the more, smaller sized ones it will be a lot of work but we can get 100 for 32 dollars.

    And finally the boostled bulb option. I can rig a fan cooled fixtures that will run 6 of those bulbs. This is the most expensive of all the options but the easiest to change in and out.

    I have thought of the possibility of keeping the PCs on the front of the tank and the leds near the rear which would be scaped higher and run the led bulbs in certain areas that that need the higher light so my lower light loving corals remain effected less.