I am probably going to be disowned for this

I'm in. I had Trates in the 200 range for over 6 months with no adverse affect on the fish. No illness, no lossess. my Palys on the other hand hated my guts, they did not die out, but I never saw them open once. So, as for the fish, no Trates are not going to harm them, I've seen that first hand. Corals on the other hand are a much different bug. They like some levels, in the lower ranges, but can't hack that high stuff.;D

 

LOL, well wikipedia aside, no coral has ever been diagnosed with methemoglobinemia, it's physically impossible LOL. Additionally, fish in saltwater, aren't susceptible until extremely high levels for well understood reasons.

If you want to get an idea of the levels, see Pierce et al. "Nitrate Toxicity to Five Species of Marine Fish". For nitrate the LC50, that is the Lethal concentration for 50% of the fish, ranged from 573ppm for Planehead Filefish to over 3000ppm for the Beaugregory Damsel.

Corals are actually not effected by nitrate DIRECTLY, i.e. nitrate, for them, is not a "toxin" at any level. It does not directly interfere with biological functionality in any know way. However, that said, nitrate may effect corals more than fish, due to indirect effects, as described in my previous post. However, you have to be careful with your semantics. The devil is in the details as they say. Nitrate is not a "toxin" for cnidarians and for all intents and purposes, not a "toxin" for marine fish at levels encountered in our systems.

If you'd like to debate this, I suggest you come up with a scientific reference that shows or explains nitrate toxicity to marine cnidarians. I'll give you a hint though, you won't find one

 

Well sps don't have blood, so methemoglobinemia is not a disease coral can get.

Do sps tanks do well above 50ppm of nitrate and my opinion is no.

Your statement said nitrate isn't toxic in any form. High nitrate can lead to the zoos outcompeting the coral and stunting their growth. If
oxygen from photosynthesis due to the high amount of nitrates gets built up too much the corals tissue can dissolve.

Fish can adapt to higher nitrate levels but there is a toxin there affecting the immune system and organs. The fish will often suffer a disease and succumb to it. There doesn't have to be a level where an animal dies to establish something is a toxin. However, you cited the exact levels that a couple animals will die of nitrate toxcity.

 

Here is my coloration and growth with this nitrate level. I have 2 test kits btw (although they are both the some brand.
August 2010

September 2010

November 2010

January 2011

September 2011

Don't talk about the red planet in the last pic, one of my lights was broken and I took a little while to get a new one. Here are some close ups





Btw here is that scroll coral the day I got it... lol

 

Yes, zoox can grow faster due to nitrate, IF other requirements are satisfied. This can lead to production of radicals, such as O2 radicals, at an accelerated rate, faster than the coral expel them. This can lead to stress and mortality. This is especially true for SPS, as they can not change their shape to limit surface area for light and diffusion as can LPS and soft corals.
So, they are 100% depended on the flow, light and other conditions we provide.

HOWEVER, this is IF other conditions are satisfied. There need to be sufficient phosphate, iron etc... otherwise zoox growth will still be limited and there is no issues. You can't put a number on it, you could have hundreds of ppm without issue, if the zoox is limited by other means.

On the surface, this seems like a technicality. However, there is a very important reason to point this out, that being that many people seem to take exceedingly drastic measures to reduce nitrate, causing severe stress to their systems, when nitrate is not causing immediate harm and could be handled with more gentle methods.

REMEMBER, nitrate is not a sign of poor water quality, it is a sign of a nutrient limitation. If there is sufficient nutrients, such as phosphate, iron etc.. the nitrate will be consumed by algae, zoox etc... and it will read 0. This has absolutely nothing to do with the influx into the system. This is what we really should be interested in, but unfortunately is not something we can measure, so, we turn to a point estimate for nitrate instead, but tend to forget the inherent limitations of that surrogate metric.

I would suggest that you look at your wiki article again, notice they mention
"freshwater or estuarine systems" only. When you understand the relationship between salt, Cl- and O2 then you'll understand why it isn't a toxin There is absolutely no research showing toxicity of nitrate at any levels, in MARINE fish other than the reference I cited. Water, in too high a dosage is a toxin. We do not consider water a toxin though, as it is not toxic in levels typically encountered. Same for nitrate, you need to get into the hundreds of ppm to start seeing any effect. At normal levels, and certainly at the levels the OP is describing, it is not a toxin....

 

Beautiful tank gabbyr189! It certainly does not appear that nitrate is causing any accelerated zoox growth. Again, I'd confirm your test results, then, if confirmed, you may want to take some measures to slowly reduce nitrate. However, I don't see a need to take drastic action and stress your system.


Some things that will help reduce nitrate, directly or indirectly:


-Efficient Protein skimming- Keep protein skimmer clean and use a good one.
-Clean water source- RO/DI water - make sure output is 0 tds.
-harvest macro algae in fuge
-feed smaller amounts more, rather than lots less often.
-keep amount fed consistient to maintain steady biomass rather than allow fluxuating biomass.
-good cleanup crew
-Run carbon and GFO.
-Keep filters clean - remove detritus
-Keep substrate clean of detritus.
-Avoid dead spots, make sure there is flow
-Probably best to avoid any biofilter other than sand and LR.
-Remote deep sand bed
-more advanced and may be much more risky, but carbon dosing can be effective.

Also, I would suggest looking at this article.
Aquarium Chemistry: Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

 

Man this thread has turned into an awesome debate. I am also one who beleives that the constant quest for 0 nitrates is way overrated. My system has been at 80ppm for 3 months, its currently running with no skimmer, just a fuge and carbon. Fish are happy as can be, and although I have no sps, my soft corals are growing and opening better than ever. I see people with great looking tanks, buying skimmers, trying algea scrubbers, buying biopellet reactors, doing massive water changes, blowing money left and right trying 10 different pieces of equipment on their tank because they r trying to get rid of their 5 ppm of nitrates. And I ask, why? If I had 10 or below I would be throwing a party I would be so happy.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

 

Do you run chaeto? Might be the easiest way to naturally help out, if you really want to do something. I wouldn't put too much thought into testing in an established tank like yours, unless something goes completely haywire and things start dying. I tested my tank like twice a week for the first month or so I had it, and haven't done it once since then.. When somethings wrong, you'll be able to tell just by looking. We all notice things in our own tanks that others don't.. So if it looks good (love the pics btw) I wouldn't bother with anything.

 

Thanks! And yes I do have chaeto. Its kind of weird that you brought that up.. I've had it in my tank since it finished cycling. It was growing like crazy for almost a year. I gave it away and threw it out. Then.. about a month ago I had some extra cyano/hair algae growth (I set up a GFO reactor about a week ago). Around this time (Before GFO), for some reason, my chaeto stopped growing? What could have caused this? I assumed phosphate was the problem.. And if people are talkin about nitrate tests.. How about those phosphate tests! I figured the best way (besides digitally) was to read it based on the algae growth... But now, the chaeto is exploding again?!

I have since realized something about the algae in my DT. They are only really growing on the left side towards the middle (less in the middle). So I am thinking that MAYBE this could be due to the dim LED moonlights on my T5 fixture. They are on the left side - and the right side doesn't get the light at all. Do LED moonlights cause excess algae growth? And why would my chaeto just stop growing like that? This is getting confusing. Here is a ROUGH outline. Timing probably isn't perfect but I think the ordering is.

0 Cycle
~ 1 month: - Sump added with chaeto
~ 1-12 months: -blah blah fish coral coral chaeto growing, coral, normal issues
~ 13 months: - LED moonlights on LEFT
~ 14 months: - minor but significant green cyano, red cyano, hair algae (LEFT)
- Chaeto growth declines/ceases
~ 14.5 months: GFO/Carbon
- 12 hr light cycle in sump to 24 hr light cycle in sump
- Feeding every day to every other day
~ 15 months: - Chaeto growth explosion
- some hair algae seems to be turning brown

Okay so now that I have typed up this whole novel I've got goin here, I have pretty much answered my own questions. I should make timelines more often. Now after all that I don't really want to go and delete it.. : Any comments on the 24 hr light cycle, LED moonlights etc may be useful to myself and others. Okay, done. Read debate enjoy.

 

the moonlights maybe be giving off wavelengths in bad spectrums that entice algae growth and from my understanding isnt a sump/fug supposed to be lit for 24 hours?