High phosphates and nitrates

Discussion in 'New To The Hobby' started by beamer, Jun 5, 2004.

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  1. beamer

    beamer Sea Dragon

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    Sorry guys if I haven't answered all of your questions.

    As far as the algae levels are concerned they aren't bad, at least I don't feel that I am battling with them. I get a little of the green algae along the edges of the tank and on the back of the tank. I use my magnet every few days.

    I do have corraline in my tank and I think I have more of it since I've had the tank but that's a good thing isn't it?.

    I've not tested the sand yet. I forgot.  Sorry.

    The previous owners Alk was around 11-12 His calcium also ran high from time to time. The last week that he recorded was 485-490.  I have not added any calcium supplements for quite a while. Haven't needed it. I guess the water changes take care of that.

    There are 2 weeks that he didn't record anything. I guess right before I bought it.

    I'm not real sure about my Ca test. It is by salifert and I'm not too sure about the little bitty syringe they give you plus the little tip you put on it. It says that there will be a space between the solution and the plunger. This space is not always the same. I was especially noticing this last night while doing the test. Why do they add the stupid little tip?  Sometimes there is a space as much as 10 points. So maybe my Ca isn't really as high as it appears. How much of a space should there be? There's a couple of those tests that use that little syringe and tip. I forget which the others are.

    I am pleased that the numbers have dropped as much as they have. The past few weeks of water changing hasn't done much. I have been using the PhosBan ,I forget, maybe three weeks, and Kent's nitrate sponge granuels. I do have a little macroalge and maybe suctioning off the rocks and sump and all have helped.

    I am using Kents charcoal. I use it for 3 days then take it out. I'm almost out of it. I have some by marinland that came with my Magnum 350 which still isn't set up. My husband keeps saying he'll help me with it. I've heard that before!!

    I guess my skimmer is doing ok. Its a Aqua C ev 180. I've lowered the water in the sump some, as suggested, so that it might skim more efficiently. I'm emptying it every few days. I don't have all that much stuff in it. I'm trying to keep it clean so it will skim more efficiently, at least that 's what someone somewhere told me.

    I do not use bio balls.
    I've had the tank right at 9 weeks.
    The salt being used before was Instant Ocean, but I continued using it until I used up the bucket. I have been using Oceanic for several weeks now. I don't remember for sure, I didn't record that.

    I don't know that I'm going to be able to do daily water changes. I am worn out right now and ready to go to bed.  I have made up 15 gls of salt water but I dont have it to the right level yet. I have 15 more gal of Ro/Di waiting to have salt added to it. I'll stay up till I get the salt right. The tank is at 1.024.  It seems like when I'm making up salt I always wind up using more than what the directions suggest. I always seem to need more. Is that what you guys also find?
    I think I'm using 5 gl jugs. How much should water weigh and I'll go weigh it. Maybe my jugs are more than 5gl.

    Thanks for all the input. I have to admit its all a little confusing and overwhelming, especially with there being so many different opinions out there. At least my tank looks good--or at least I think it does and everyone seems happy. They are hungry right now so I better go feed them. My husband says he's a little hungry too!

    I'll get to the sand test when I get a chance. Thanks for such a great response.

    Cindy
     
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  3. NaH2O

    NaH2O Astrea Snail

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    I don't want to take away from the fact that there are too many fish, IMO, in this tank. I did a quick calculation of the mature sizes, and it is around 111 inches of fish in this tank. I certainly think this would be OK in a very large tank, but not in a 120 gallon. Sorry for being so blunt, but I really really feel like you need to get rid of a lot of fish. The problem is going to continue with that many fish, as they grow. You are getting tired of doing the water changes necessary, so maybe just trade in some fish.

    Regarding the calcium concentration: My concern about the high calcium is the "snowstorm" possibility. There is a definate ionic imbalance happening. (see salinity post above)

    Phosphates bind to calcium carbonate. A drop in pH will aid in the melting/releasing of phosphates that are bound. Bacteria produce an enzyme that will also melt the bond and release the phosphates from calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is present in both the substrate and live rock.

    What I would like to see happen is lose a number of the fish....do a major water change, and retest. Get rid of the sandbed during this time (if it is a positive phosphate test), and either replace with fresh or go without. Since you have gobies, you may want to just replace with new sand.
     
  4. inwall75

    inwall75 Giant Squid

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  5. JohnO

    JohnO Moderator

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    NaH2O


    Oh Dear :)

    Inch of fish per gallon is nearly as silly and trivial as watts per gallon. Neither are correct, nor are they valid. If you want to debate that further maybe we can start a new thread :)


    I'm also not sure about your reasoning regarding the Calcium and the fact you consider it to be too high. My belief is that the Alk is too low. If the Alk was raised the Phosphates that have been accumulating for some time would remain bound, end of problem. If you destroy the Alkalinity wouldn't that release more of the bound Phosphate and increase the problem? Or is that what you are suggesting, release the bound Phosphate into the water column and then remove it by some chemical means?

    Could be a good option, for the future if done slowly :)

    John
     
  6. Land_Fish

    Land_Fish Guest

    With a common vinyl hose you can suck up most of the sand as you change water. I would not take it all out at once though.  You will see snow in the tank only when all three readings are high. Cal, Alk and pH. if the pH gets to 8.6 + be ready to do water changes.
    Like I said before Oceanic salt reading run on the high side of the scale but don't want you to switch now.
    If the sump water is always at the same level your skimmer will produce correctly so don't understand why you would want to keep it on the low side.
    Vinager will also drop pH down but not suggesting that here. just an FYI.
     
  7. NaH2O

    NaH2O Astrea Snail

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    I'm going to sit back on this one now. Frankly, even though you feel that inch/gallon is silly....there still are too many fish in this tank regardless of how you determine it. Territory alone is an issue, and the nitrates speak for themselves. Chemistry in the aquaium is a complex issue. Let's not forget magnesium in the mix, as well. I can't recall off hand what the reading was, but it may be keeping a snowstorm at bay?

    On a side note to Cindy: The Salifert Calcium test ..... the tip draws solution into it. The air that is present in the tip goes into the syringe. Therefore, you really do have the correct amount of solution in the tip + syringe. It is possible that the plunger was pulled back slightly before you drew up the solution, which would make it seem as though you have different amounts of air present in the syringe. If you are following the directions as written, then you are doing the test correctly. Try not to think too much about it....it will just make you crazy. Hope you are hanging in there!
     
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  9. JohnO

    JohnO Moderator

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    [quote author=NaH2O link=board=Newbie;num=1086480105;start=30#35 date=06/08/04 at 19:24:24]I'm going to sit back on this one now.  Frankly, even though you feel that inch/gallon is silly....there still are too many fish in this tank regardless of how you determine it.  Territory alone is an issue, and the nitrates speak for themselves.  Chemistry in the aquaium is a complex issue.  Let's not forget magnesium in the mix, as well.  I can't recall off hand what the reading was, but it may be keeping a snowstorm at bay?[/quote]

    Please don't sit back, vigorous discussion is a good thing :)

    It's just my opinion that the essense of the high Phos readings ( the only problem that I can see ) is not to do with over population.

    For that reason I wondered about other issues and why these readings were not the same with the previous owner.

    John
     
  10. mojoreef

    mojoreef Bristle Worm

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    I thought that I may throw a touch into the discussion. On the calcium binding up the Phosphates. It will for sure as long as thier is a seed surface, in this case the sand would be more then enough. The problem being that this bound will only last a day at most. Bacteria will almost immediately release the P from the sand making it free and the calcium still in solid form on the sand.
    A calcium level this high is not a good situation as it is poisenious to corals and will cause them alot of undo stress. a calcium reading of 490 at 1.023 is getting to the range of 550 at normal SW concentrations. I think going this route might be a little to late in the game. Also raising the alk will not hold the P in a state of be bound up, the bacteria will take care of that in short order.
    I would think it safe to say that with the bioload involved and the fact thier is a sand bed one can assume that the bed has been over whelmed with nutrients and cannot process them. My suggestion would be to water change yourself back to normal parameter (wc=25 %) and then remove the bed. At that time I would go ahead and replace it if you wish, but you really need to rethink the ammount of fish you have in thier or you will be right back in trouble fairly quick

    good luck


    Mike
     
  11. JohnO

    JohnO Moderator

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    Hi Mike

    Could you please qualify the following for me.

    Cheers

    John
     
  12. Craig Manoukian

    Craig Manoukian Giant Squid

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    Increased bioload = shortend life of DSB.  

    After reading this thread I concur that the bioload finally caught up with the capability of the sand bed to work properly.  This situation logically would have ocurred if the original owner would have had the tank.