Drunk Fish

NOWICKI · Aug 5, 2002

I've got a new Reef Tank and it is running fairly well. Right now I am in the cycle process. My blue damsel is not doing to well. Everything seemed to be running well. The salenity is maybe a bit high but I'm adding fresh water a little bit at a time to fix that. So I'm not sure why my damsel is swimming as though it were drunk. It's pretty sad. What can I do? :-/

karlas · Aug 6, 2002

what is your salinity? you say high just how high is it?
you may be having a problem with your damsel because of your tank cycling. during the cycle you have ammonia and nitrites which do seriously affect fish. it actually causes poisoning to the fish. cycling with damsels used to be the only way to cycle the tank but now fishless cycling is the way to go. cycling wil cause great stress on the fish odd swimming, discoloration, appetite problems, possibly death. most damsels may survive but can become nasty to new additions and may end up with long term affects like respirtory or gill damage.

you can use live rock to cycle or the table shrimp method to do this. is the damsel the only thing in the tank? what all do you test for? for some good info you can check out the links in the first post in the forum "newbies to saltwater" has great info and tons of it. when starting sw tanks the best thing to do is read, read, and read some more.

NOWICKI · Aug 6, 2002

Thanks Karlas
My tank is this:
26g
fluval204
100w heater
live fiji sand
8pds of live rock
2 turbo snails
2 crabs
and 1 damsel
well, he died last night.
(poor guy).
The salenity was between 1.022 and 1.024 and I was working to bring that down. Is there a wrong way to do that?
The temp was at 75-77
Lights off over night.

See, I followed my friends advice to the t (he owns a pet shop with many successful reef tanks). I think that I might be missing something or maybe not, maybe the fish was just stressed because we bought him durning an anniversary sale and a lot was going on. I even did the whole bit about letting him float in his bag before introducing him to the tank and then I added my water to his and then fished him out into my tank.
Should I let the LR finnish the cycle? that will take longer won't it? should I get another damsel or maybe another species?

Thanks for any and all advice!!!
Ryan "newbie" Nowicki

karlas · Aug 7, 2002

your salt is ok a good range for salt is 1.021-1.025 if you are staying steady there dont change it.

i would definitly say the damsel died to the cycle. cycling with fish was always the way to go but they just found better ways to do it with out stressing or killing animals. so maby that is the way your friend learned. some people that have been in the hobby a long time still go by the older methods. you can let the lr finish the cycle, it wont take any longer that with the damsel. there is really no way to speed it up. one thing with this hobby is patience. do not get another damsel or add any more critters to your tank until the cycle is finished. if you want to be sure about your tank cycling take a piece of table shrimp and throw in there this will cycle your tank for you. it will dissapear the bacteria as it multiplies will eat up the shrimp. i cycled a 20 gall qtank, and a friends 55 this way with the shrimp. our 75 was cycled with lr bought off line. here is a good explaination of the nitrogen cycle

http://www.reefcorner.com/Manual/nitrogen_cycle.htm

here is some other info i copied

Like all living creatures, fish give off waste products (pee and poo). These nitrogenous waste products break down into ammonia (NH3), which is highly toxic to most fishes. In nature, the volume of water per fish is extremely high, and waste products become diluted to low concentrations. In aquariums, however, it can take as little as a few hours for ammonia concentrations to reach toxic levels.
How much ammonia is too much? The quick answer is: if a test kit is able to measure it, you've got too much (i.e., it's in a high enough concentrations to stress fish). Consider emergency action (water changes and zeolite clay) to reduce the danger.

To determine when the cycle has completed, buy appropriate test kits . and measure the levels yourself, or bring water samples to your fish store and let them perform the test for you (perhaps for a small fee). The cycling process normally takes anywhere from 2-6 weeks. At temperatures below 70F, it takes even longer to cycle a tank. In comparison to other types of bacteria, nitrifying bacteria grow slowly. Under optimal conditions, it takes fully 15 hours for a colony to double in size!
Warning: AVOID THE TEMPTATION TO GET MORE FISH UNTIL AFTER YOUR TANK HAS FULLY CYCLED! More fish means more ammonia production, increasing the stress on all fish and the likelihood of fish deaths. Once ammonia levels reach highly stressful or toxic levels, your tank has succumbed to ``New Tank Syndrome''; the tank has not yet fully cycled, and the accumulating ammonia has concentrations lethal to your fish.

How Much Ammonia Is Too Much?
In an established tank, ammonia should be undetectable using standard test kits available at stores. The presence of detectable levels indicates that your bio filter is not working adequately, either because your tank has not yet cycled, or the filter is not functioning adequately (e.g., too small for fish load, clogged, etc.) It is imperative that you address the problem (filter) in addition to the symptoms (high ammonia levels).
The exact concentration at which ammonia becomes toxic to fish varies among species; some are more tolerant than others. In addition, other factors like water temperature and chemistry play a significant role. For example, ammonia (NH3) continually changes to ammonium (NH4+) and vice versa, with the relative concentrations of each depending on the water's temperature and pH. Ammonia is extremely toxic; ammonium is relatively harmless. At higher temperatures and pH, more of the nitrogen is in the toxic ammonia form than at lower pH.

Standard test kits measure total ammonia (ammonia plus ammonium) without distinguishing between the two forms. The following chart gives the maximum long-term level of ammonia-N in mg/L (ppm) that can be considered safe at a given temperature and pH. Again, note that a tank with an established biological filter will have no detectable ammonia; this chart is provided only for emergency purposes. If your levels approach or exceed the levels shown, take emergency action IMMEDIATELY.

Water Temperature
pH 20C (68F) 25C (77F)
_________________________________
6.5 15.4 11.1
7.0 5.0 3.6
7.5 1.6 1.2
8.0 0.5 0.4
8.5 0.2 0.1
Click to expand...

any new tank has to go through the cycle there is no way around it you will have the spike in ammonia, nitrites, then nitrates. these are the 3 major test you should keep an eye on during the cycle. other things to test for in a tank that are a must are ph, alkalinity, salinity. there are many other test but for starting out these are the most importent.

ranges for these after the cycle should be
salinity 1.021-1.025
ammonia 0
nitrites 0
nitrates for a reef 0-20 with fish only they can stand higher levels
ph 8.1-8.4
alkalinity 9-12 dkh

karlas · Aug 7, 2002

also i forgot to mention check out the thread newbies to saltwater in the general discussion forum i have quite a few sites with good beginner info listed there and a ton of stuff to read :thumbsup1: ;D :thumbsup2:

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