Cycling

Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by trent51593, Feb 19, 2008.

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  1. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    im not disputing the biological function of the cycling process. but to keep the LR alive with minimal loss of life NH3,4 must be kept under 1ppm or it defeats the purpose of spending the money on the LR. ammonia NH3 is more toxic than ammonium NH4, both change dependant on the pH. NH3 of .01ppm will show negetive effects on fish. the only test that really needs to be done is NH3,4 during the cycling which in turn keeps the NO2 under 20 ppm. NO3 isnt as detrimental as some may think, and the byproducts of this stage are the desired bacteria. other parameters/tests can be done during cycling to help guide the system along easier i.e. Ca, Mg, dKH. the ANN cycle is dealt with daily even after the initial cycling process, and happens everytime we feed. "cycling" LR is nothing more than getting it used to the little amount of water in the system, since it was used to the umpteen trillion gallons of water in the ocean.

    the things as mentioned before is the desired bacteria, hence the thread i started labeled bacteria. which by the way no one had the answer for.

    this hobby takes patience and virtue, nothing good happens fast in this hobby. ive "cycled" many tanks with minimal die off in short periods of time using the philosophy mentioned. but apparently i dont know what im talking about.
     
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  3. trent51593

    trent51593 Coral Banded Shrimp

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    To reef guru

    Everyone does everything different. I do not have any live rock at this time so im not worried about killing off anything. If it has worked for you then great im trying to do it the easy way and not add anymore water than is need with my ro/di system. They waste a lot of water so the less i waste the better my water bill so already high and i odnt want it any higher, on a normal basis its in the 100s and being that I have filled a 90 gal. tank its gonna be really high so the more money I save on that the more I can spend on the tank. I am new to all of this so any and all advise will be taken from just about anyone unless it sounds like they are full of it. What ever you have to offer as far as keeping my water chemistry correct with adding additives to home made remedys would be much appreciated. Let me know how how you keep things up and going on a low budget, (not saying you have a low budget but I do).
     
  4. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    hence the confusion. i read through the post again and it seems everybody assumed you had LR. you really cant cycle a tank without LR, if you do, when LR is introduced the cycling process starts over. to lessen the confusion in the future please be specific as we are all here to help and are willing to do whatever it takes to make sure all are tanks prosper.
     
  5. trent51593

    trent51593 Coral Banded Shrimp

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    Oh, im sorry for the confusion. One reason I have not gotten any live rock is that I wasnt sure if you needed any special lighting for live rock. Please let me know soon, because this weekend i plan on getting things that I dont have that I need and setting up my sump. I was thinking of getting (in the near future) a 260 watt PC light, would you recommend this? I do also plan on keeping corals at a much later date (8-12 months at the least) would these lights be sufficiant enough for my corals. Currently i have one T-5 fixture with 2 lights in it and was planning on getting new lights for it very soon, maybe this weekend if needed for the live rock. Again i did not realize that you needed LR to cycle a tank, I was hopeing that with the lights that i plan to get that it would eventually purple up or so they say. Please let me know what you think my tank is a 90 gal. regular 48 wide 18 deep and 24 high if you needed to know.
     
  6. amcarrig

    amcarrig Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Live rock does not need light to survive and you do not need live rock to cycle a tank. To cycle a tank, you need to put something in it that produces ammonia, be it a live fish, a dead piece of shrimp or live rock (with dying/decaying life forms on it) :)
     
  7. Tangster

    Tangster 3reef Sponsor

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    I was never sure of your question really I can tell you most of the wanted or desired bacteria just as anyone could But if you want numbers/levels of them ? Not possible to do it can't be done . You just can lets say your tank has been running several yrs and you loose a animal the levels will have to die off to adjust over feed a tad and the bacteria will have to increase to keep up the numbers change from day to day to Hr to hr.. never static I did list the needed denitryfing bacteria you need and have to have ..
     
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  9. Tangster

    Tangster 3reef Sponsor

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    I have cycled tanks for yrs with out any live rock I won't use L/R But if you add live rock to a established tank there will be not more cycling occurring then if you add a fish. The bacteria just has to increase in numbers to accommodate the biological demand from the new addition.
    As for L/R until someone can show the reason why I would need it I'll never use it again..
    I have tried it all and the least healthy and problematic system I ever set up was full of Prime live rock. Not to mention the pest that came in with it.. And as most say to quarantine a new coral or fish why not apply the same method's to a nasty rock full of who knows what ?
     
  10. Tangster

    Tangster 3reef Sponsor

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    Good healthy L/R or prime stuff is shipped dry just wrapped i wet newspaper and stuck in a plastic bag to keep it damp It has nothing on it to die but coralline and some dentrifying bacterias and lots of anaerobic bacteria inside . the bacteria is what you want. Not the pest living on it.. All the worms and fauna will come in with coral additions or just get there some way.. So many myth's about L/R.. But mostly its just to seed for bacteria and handle some immediate biological load for a instant saltwater tank.. Good cured L/R cost about 13.00 a pound and its racked cured and its never shipped in water.. That all started when they saw faster profits and started to ship trash rock for less full of problems.. I'd never use either ever again after my experimenets with several types .. Its totaly not needed. I have other uses for my money.. If someone could jsut give me some Data on its advantages ! LOL other then it sperrating a person from their money..And yor rock will be alive just as anyother in a few months But alive with what you want and nothing you don't want to kill your tank and or cause you problems.. L/R is totaly un-needed
     
  11. reef_guru

    reef_guru Humpback Whale

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    amcarrig and tangy:
    "cycling" without LR is like a grain of sand on a beach. if a system is going to have LR put in at a later date its a waste of time to "cycle" a tank. the bacterial amounts dont even come close.

    tangy:
    LR plays a very large part in a system, hence the berlin method

    without upsetting the thread this whole discussion started over a 20% water change. if NH3,4 reaches the toxic level of 1ppm a 20% water change will not delay the break in period, will still allow the bacteria to grow at a steady rate, will keep NO2 in check, will be more beneficial to the system with or without LR, and if there is LR it will keep almost everything alive. but only if the NH3,4 reaches 1ppm should a 20% water change be done during "cycling"
     
  12. Tangster

    Tangster 3reef Sponsor

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    I started a Pure Berlin bare bottom and skimmer hence the ETSS skimmer's and I never used a single piece of L.R its the bacteria in and on the rock.. All the fauna find their way into the system's . In the mid to latere 80's when the berlin came about the rock was permium and rack cured not just hauled out of the gulf and tossed in the system.. I ran berlins until they bored me .. They worked well But I like a little bottom cover rather then piled up rock of coralline glass. But after a yr my base rock was as covered in coralline and anyone was and the bacteria was invisible :)

    The fisrt part of this with the L.R and sand I don't fully understand But again I have started many tanks for people and after a bit they added hunks of L/R that where sold to them by LFS to acheive bio diversity :) Yes they got more then they bargend for .. But if you add L/R to a established system they bacteria with in the system will handle the extar bio load unti the die off occures and the rock regrows the proper amount of needed bacterias..
    Where it not for frar of disease or pest I'd think nothing of tossing in 50 or more ponds in to theis tank here at home. But again the same goes for rock removal from a system.. adding or removing all the bacteria's have to balance out.
    As for high jacking a thread I could care less if it helps anyone to really understand whats going on in their tanks and why it goes on.. maybe that why I don't have to do water changes :) As many like me also have found out over time....