Auto Water change through skimmer questions

So that sounds reasonably safe. Let's also agree there are many ways to skin a cat and if different ways accomplish the same job then so be it. You already have the stuff so no need to change anything.

Just so we are on the same page, have you read the thread and do you understand how the other sytem works?

 

Yes, and I am very interested. If this system doesn't work out, I'll probably swap to that. I definitely agree that there are many ways to skin a cat! There is no doubt your Tunze idea will work. At this point I'm in so deep with this idea that I want to pursue it to completion.

 

IMO, using the skimmer gives inconsistent results. I would be hard pressed to quantify that, but I like set things. Skimmer production rises and falls over the course of a day, and it falls over the course of a week and a month... it needs to be cleaned, salt creep in the air line... what ever. So your SW addition tuned to removal, but that removal will not be set...

The bucket and overflow is good protection and that part is good. you will be covered in too much removal... too little removal would mean your addition is putting in a set amount, and over a day/week/month you are putting in more SW than taking out... what that will do is cause your ATO to add less RO/DI and your salinity will go up... now that is a fact on paper, but in real life does it mean much... hard to say. I mean what... a shift of .005 a month. I don't really know... it may very well be a moot point.

If you do find this to be true... you could get around it by making a weaker SW solution... say 1.025... then over time it might work out... obviously we can't be perfect... I'm just saying you could account for a little creep one way or the other. Does that make sense?

What I would be comfortable doing is using the conductivity probe in a fail safe way... that if you get this far out do this. Your float switch in your bucket could fail and you put out too much water... your ato will kick in... again unlimited... and your salinity will go down... turn off your skimmer if your salinity reaches 1.025. If your salinity creeps up, then correct it with RO/DI... if it gets to 1.027 then turn off your salt water addition pump... your ATO will get any loss and lower it over time. Again, you might not be able to use those values and may have to use ppm.

And last... if you did not already know... you need to put a delay start on your skimmer if power=000. After a power loss your sump is full and your skimmer will overflow, but now that you have it dumping out you will loose water and then the ato will kick in to cover when it is at regular level... I had a 2 minute delay on mine.

 

With this method, I'm going to have to watch and constantly adjust the saltwater pump... It may end up that doing all this is just more work than it's worth and I will go to a regular pump auto water change. But it's not like it takes any time to look through my Refractometer and adjust for the next day.. That will take a whole 2 minutes each night.. no biggie.

Between checking with my refractometer and the conductivity meter.. It's easy to adjust on the fly for small inconsistencies. In a normal skim you are removing salt water with no replacement. So nearly everyone with a skimmer is changing there salinity point to some degree. On RC I found this post where many people are using there skimmers with good results.

Even if the float switch fails, Any water past 4g is dumped straight back into the sump. So that's not unlimited. The ATO is probably getting swapped to a 6g container I have sitting around to limit that as well. (I have been sold on the fear after working on this project)

Yeah, I did know that and have some of my programming in to protect. I am still working on it though. I am just learning the capabilities of the apex.

Thank you for taking time to help me with the project. I have been saved from a lot of future problems from the discussions in this thread.

 

Well OK... was not a big fan at the start, but sounds like you got some things in place and some stuff figured out....

I was thinking different if your float switch fails in your waste bucket... but ya, you are still right that you don't get the alarm for a while and your skimmer is putting out, but then overflows and you are not loosing anything, or it getting worse.

Be sure that your waste bucket is higher than your sump.... perhaps you might not think of it, but just make sure nothing happens to over fill the sump and then skimmer puts out too much cause it's flooded and overflows the bucket cause the sump level is too high. That could happen if your RO/DI is hooked up to your tank, but glad to hear you are removing that hazard.

As far as monitoring... you know I don't think you would need to be anymore vigilant than you are now at checking it... I mean even a gallon or two a day will hardly show in a 180... I was talking about creep over a week or so not a change day to day. maybe over a month, but as I said I really do not know that will be a problem in real life.

The big thing is that you bought a dosing pump... no big deal... you can use it.. if you dose two part you have a spare, you can sell it.... as far as doing it different in the future, you already have all the stuff, a ATO, Apex, reservoirs and SW. I just used a power head I had laying around for waste water... all you would really need is a relay and a pump to put in salt water... an aqualifter is cheap.

... but we have not even found things to be broken yet so no need to get crazy. Sounds like you have a reasonable experiment going and see how it does for you... one thing for sure is that automated daily water changes are simply brilliant. It really is a great mod and I really do not see why more people do not do it.

 

Really, I think I am closer to 200+ gallons of total water volume. I was able to fill the tank and then added my rock and the water displacement from the rock wasn't enough to fill the sump and I had to add more salt water. Yeah, I will make sure that the bucket is easily able to gravity drain back to the skimmer compartment of my sump.

It's not a standard dosing pump.. It's a 50ml/minute BRS pump that is made for ATO uses.
I would imagine it would be perfect for this purpose. Either way I want to get an aqualifter for the waste bucket. What model would you suggest (i'm not familiar with them)

Would I not need to buy two Osmolators at $200 each?

I'm really excited about the prospect. I think the slight loss in efficiency vs. larger water changes less often is more than made up in the lack of tank swings. I'm really excited about getting the daily change going either way.

 

I asked because for my 90 which was about 110 gallons 1 gallon a day worked out for simplicity sake and it was plenty... I probably could have even done less.... so for you 2 gallons a day is plenty and will work out to doing a 60g wc monthly. For me 1/day worked cause I had 7 gallon jugs... changed them weekly.

I forgot BRS put that out. I don't think you could use it in my setup... just differences... it does not quite put out enough to top off a couple gallons quick... 50 ml/minute is pretty small even if it is more than their dosing pumps. Read about my setup and the particulars of the Tunze and you will get it. I didn't use Aqualifters but just know they are proven and cheap for moving small quantities of water in ATOs.

You, don't need 2 Osmolators.. just one. then you buy a relay, and a spare top off pump... about $40 total... then the relay switches the ATO function between the RO/DI and the salt water.

For the waste I had to dump mine.. you are using a pump for safety measures... other that did this just dumped to drain. Any small pump will do really, even aqualifters.

 

I get you now.

After 10 seconds of research I found the aqualifters lol. They will be perfect for emptying my waste bucket and as my ATO pump when I swap to the new system.

 

What is the benefit of the osmolater over using multiple float switches controlled by the apex?

 

Just google osmolators, there have been several threads here on them... those that have them LOVE them... I am one of them.

The gist is that they are good ATOs with good safety and work very well. Level is controller by a probe and not a float switch. Float switches fail and you need to keep them clean. The tip of the eye would touch the water for the Tunze and it would keep level to an eight of an inch... very good control with no moving parts... I had mine in my return section and a 1/8" in that area was a very very small amount of water.

It also has some alarms that can be configured for some safety... there is a safety shut off float switch if the sump or tank level should get too high. And there is an auto pump shut off if the ATO reservoir goes empty.

As usual not everyone thinks $200 for a ATO is reasonable... they like the $100 better or DIY with a bunch of float switches. Just be sure to use any ATO with good safety all on it's own, then modifying it to do daily WC s is very simple.

The guy that made that had a Tunze and so did I... I also had a spare top off pump and a Apex so I was already set with everything except the relay. The relay is like $12. But in practice, you would set up any ATO the same way... use the ATO function to top off the salt water that was removed.... use a relay plugged into the Apex to switch between a RO/DI pump and a salt water pump. Operation would be the same regardless of ATO... I just happen to like the Tunze and it was very worry free.