Will this setup work? Advice on Improvements?

Discussion in 'New To The Hobby' started by oside, Aug 3, 2004.

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  1. oside

    oside Astrea Snail

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    Location:
    Oceanside, CA,California
    First off let me apologize for the long post & also say I would never have attempted any of this if it wasn't for sites like this. Thanks (in advance) to all of you that have advised us noobs.
    My name is Matt, I live in Southern California, & I have only had freshwater aquariums up until now. (I've especially enjoyed raising live plants) I am ready to make the leap to salt water, but need some advice before I start spending $$ on the critical items.
    I have read multiple books & quite a bit of info from the web, & have begun collecting misc. parts.
    My plan:
    I have a 55 gal 1/4 cylinder glass tank that I would like to use as the main tank. Water will be pumped from the overflow chamber through a protein skimmer & flow down to a wet/dry sump area & 15 gal refugium below the main tank (hidden) for macro-algae growth. This will then be pumped up above the main tank (approx. 7 ft vertically) to a 30 gal secondary live rock/sand refugium for some "special" creatures that require isolation (in the future). This upper tank/refugium will be visible. From here, the water will flow into a 10 gal surge tank which will flow directly into the main tank. I have attached a crude drawing because, as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Please note that the picture is not even close to scale.

    [​IMG]

    Link to pic

    My Main question are:
    #1 - is there a pre-existing method to make the "slats / holes" in the main tank to the overflow chamber adjustable? Since I will be using a surge device, I would like to be able to adjust the water height fairly easily.
    #2 - Which is recomended - PVC pipe or vinyl tubing? Why?
    #3 - Will a 10" drop be enough for the surge tank to create sufficient force into the tank?
    #4 - Any recomendations on an overflow/flood avoidance for the lower refugium? I have figured out how to avoid flooding from all the other sections, but depending on the volume of the protein skimmer, there could still be a few gallons of overflow if the main vertical pump quit.
    #5 - Will I still need, or should I at least plan on installing a few extra powerheads in the main tank, or will the surge device create enough cross flow?
    #6 - Any items I'm missing here, or anything I should remove from the system?
    Again, thanks in advance for the advice.

    Mattb
     
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  3. somethingfishy

    somethingfishy Purple Spiny Lobster

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    Sorry I don't have any advice but I do have to say  :eek:WOW :eek:

    Now that I look at it I do have a couple concerns,  first you are pumping water out of the overflow?  If you are doing that you will need different size pumps because on the 7' head.  Is there a reason you want to use a pump because you could use a siphon.

    I am not sure why you want to use a surge tank I think you would be better of using a pump in the upper refuge.

    One last thing I like using PVC in any place you shouldn't have to take apart. The vinyl tubing is easier to dismantle if need be. Also any bends in you PVC will reduce your water flow, tubing won't do that unless it is kinked.
     
  4. oside

    oside Astrea Snail

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    Thanks for the quick reply -

    I hope that's a good wow  & not a  :-/

    It seems a fairly simple setup to me, no?. Since I am building the cabinet/stand myself I only want to build it once & this will incorporate everything I think I'll want for some time. I do realize if this setup works as I'm hoping that it will only make me want a large tank.... ;D
    Yes, I was planning on pumping the water out of the overflow into the skimmer. This is due to the fact that the skimmer inlet will be above the water level of the overflow (or close to it) & I thought it best to have the water going into the skimmer pressurized? If this is not a good idea, please feel free to tell me.
    I chose to go with the surge tank for a couple reason. #1 It does seems (to me) like it would do a good job at emulating the natural ocean currents/waves, #2 because I like to make things, & #3 it'll be a fun feature to have (albeit noisy).

    Thanks again for the PVC VS vinyl hint -

    <edited for spelling>
     
  5. Matt Rogers

    Matt Rogers Kingfish

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    I am going to come back to this when I have more time (going to work) but I will second the 'wow!' 8)

    I will say that a 10" surge on a 55 should be plenty. Just a hunch based on my experience with a TetraTec filter that has a mini Carlson surge on it.

    I also will say that most hardcore people will say PVC over vinyl. I believe this has to do with flow rates.. I will try to dig something up later...

    Can't wait to see pics..

    Thanks for joining!

    :)
     
  6. beamer

    beamer Sea Dragon

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    Tyler, Texas
    Wow! I'm confused! :eek: You have 4 tanks set up? I guess someone will have to explain it to me. I'm still a newbie. I have my sump/fuge and my main tank. I'm having a little trouble comprehending 4.

    Welcome to our little family. :) You'll find these guys very helpful and knowledgable.

    I'll be anxious to see how your set up comes along. Pics and all.

    Cindy
     
  7. oside

    oside Astrea Snail

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    Location:
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    Four seprate "tanks", yes. The main 54 gal display tank (#1), the hidden from view sump/fuge (#2). The upper "tank" (#3) is a display tank/isolation area which will allow me to have creatures that might not make it in the larger tank with predators, & the #4 tank is to create a wave effect in the tank.
    After taking some measurements & starting to sketch it all out, the upper display tank will end up being only 26-27 gals.
    Also, realize that the pic in this thread does not display completely for some reason. If you click on the link there is a better view. The size/shapes in the drawing is not to scale, the scaled drawings are on paper only for now.

    Question: Is it better to have a tall/deep (small surface area) fuge for the algae, or a wide/shallow (large surface area) one?
     
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  9. dx7fd2

    dx7fd2 Sea Dragon

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    Very interesting and well thought out setup. I love the visible refugium, it gets back to what the refugium concept was originally used for, a refuge for critters that otherwise may not survive in the display tank. [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

    Welcome to 3Reef oside!! ;)

    The only suggestion I have, and it really depends on room in the bottom of the stand and the algea 'fuge, is to run the overflow down into the input side of the hidden 'fuge and locate the skimmer pump and skimmer there, or locate the skimmer next to the 'fuge and the pump in it, or both in it if room allows.

    The only reason I brought it up was that you would then have a wide open display tank with no barrier or visible pump in the display area. Basically an aesthetics call. I neglected to note the type of overflow you are going to use or if you are going to drill the tank for a bulkhead fitting. Also, it seems like the way you have it setup might restrict the return pump flow amount to the skimmer flow amount and IMHO you might be better off with a lot more than 300GPH turnover out of the return pump (some people say a minimum of 6x, some say 10x. I am shooting for 10 but whatever works is the thing to do). According to my sliderule( ;D Yeah right!!!) you will have 55 + 26 + 15 = 96gals minus what ever the percentage is for rock and sand. Say, 90 x 10 = 900 and then you have to figure in the 7' of head up to the display 'fuge. Now I am no expert, so don't take my word for it, but IMO I would include the the two 'fuges as part of the water to turnover along with the display. Most people do include the rate of any PH pumps you use in the display, I am trying to use them as the water movement devices until I can afford Oceans Motion or some other similar wave system.

    But, I may have missed something what with the surge tank etc.!!

    Drew
     
  10. oside

    oside Astrea Snail

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    Thanks for the info (& welcome) Drew -
    For the overflow, I was planning on boxing off a 6"x6" in the corner & throwing a pump in there. Fishysomething pointed out that a siphon would work also. Any reason not to run a pump in there? Can a float sensor be used to shut off pumps in case of a malfunction / near-overflow situation?
    Also, thanks for the 10x circulation rule, for some reason I had neglected to add in the other tanks (& plumbing) & was only using a 5x rule. Back to the catalogs to look up pumps (& costs)!
    I've started drawing up the cabinet setup. I'll post some "pics" once I get a more complete drawing package. Hopefully you'll have some input/critique (I believe you work in the woodworking/cabinetry industry, no?)
    Matt B
     
  11. dx7fd2

    dx7fd2 Sea Dragon

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    If you opt for the siphon type overflow the only thing you will need to check is that the return pump line has a hole just below the waterline (or a check valve) so that the top 'fuge doesn't siphon down into the bottom 'fuge and overflow. You could use a pump in the overflow but the siphon itself would be plenty. ;)

    I am going to be using a weir, that I built, as my overflow down into my sump/'fuge. The weir by design cannot cause flooding of the sump because the water level will drop below the siphon level and stop siphoning and yet maintain the siphon so that when the pump resumes the weir starts flowing again.
    (Large discussion in the DIY section under making a weir.)

    You could use two overflows which is what your diagram looks like....one from the top 'fuge (or is that drilled) into the surge area, then, into the display tank. And then from the display tank with an overflow into the bottom 'fuge. Into the return section and back up to the top 'fuge.

    Excuse my rambling, the real reason I thought of the moving the skimmer and pump was so that that would be a closed system in the sump side of the bottom 'fuge. I couldn't grasp the idea of trying to flow as much water through the skimmer as you want circulating through the whole system. I think the number is 2x amount of water in the whole system should flow through the skimmer. In your case, that means about 200gph through the skimmer or a little less. Also the aesthetics of the pump being in the display tank both visually and sound wise when you have the option of hiding both!! ;D

    You are going to have a very cool set-up no matter what you do!! There is always a way to get just about everything to work, the beauty of the improvising!! ;D
     
  12. oside

    oside Astrea Snail

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    OK, I think understand now - move the overflow line (main tank out) to the sump/bottom 'fuge & run the skimmer "in" line from the sump & have the skimmer "out" dump into the 'fuge? The skimmer would have limited the total GPH flow through the system & now the max flow rate is only limited by how much can be run through the 'fuges/surge. Excellent ;D

    MattB