water change good enough...Do I need to dose?

Discussion in 'Salt' started by libog2fish, Oct 11, 2010.

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  1. libog2fish

    libog2fish Fire Shrimp

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    Ok here's a question that's floating around my head always...I need alot of input's on this...
    I'm currently using seachem Reef salt...
    I do water changes 8 gallons every 1 and a half weeks....
    Do I need to supplement on anything...
    I've talked to alot of people and everyone tells me diffrent things...
    but I like to lean on beleiving that RO/DI arrerated and mixing salt is good enough,and would save you from purchasing all of the supplements they sell on the shelf...

    let me know what you guys think..
     
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  3. 2in10

    2in10 Super Moderator

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    If the tank is FOWLR no, but if you have hard corals then you will need to dose calcium, alkalinity and magnesium.
     
  4. blackraven1425

    blackraven1425 Giant Squid

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    It depends. What do your levels test at, before and about an hour after the water changes?

    Test kits are required, regardless as to whether you supplement.
     
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  5. libog2fish

    libog2fish Fire Shrimp

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    we'll from my understanding..adding new mixture of salt,carries a new dose of all the reef elements and minerals that corals need to survive in the ocean reef's...
    so don't get me wrong when i water change I'm basically putting in a new batch of those elements that my reef needs...correct?
    so what I'm kind of stuck at is within the week I'm watchin my tank It'll slowly loose these addtitives and i'll have to replenish...instead of me dosing me doing another new water change carrying the elements and minerals refresh my reef...etc etc....
    so not to take anything away from other fellow reefers....but I've seen amazing tanks that just look hands down gorgeous and what they tell me is the same thing "all you need man is water change and test for nitrates and phosphates"...
    that's all...
    but anyhow yeah I'm currently gonna try residing with this technique...
     
  6. blackraven1425

    blackraven1425 Giant Squid

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    What you have to realize is that you're doing an 8 gallon water change. I don't know how big your tank is, so I'm going to assume 36 gallons for the sake of my explanation. You salt mix, again, for the sake of this argument (you provided no numbers whatsoever), has numbers of 10dkh, 450ppm calcium, and 1400 magnesium - not shabby numbers.

    So, you start out with water at those numbers. Your water lowers by 10ppm calcium, 10ppm magnesium, and .5 dkh, over the course of a week (MUCH lower usage than there is in my 55g display area; I get this amount of change every other day). You do a 25% water change - do you know what your new levels are?

    They'd be 442.5ppm calcium, 9.625dkh, and 1392.5 magnesium.

    Another week goes by, with the same utilization rate (which, BTW, will never happen. If no coral dies in your tank, your utilization will definitely grow slowly over time). You do another 25% water change, and end up with levels of ~437ppm calcium, 9.343 dkh, and 1386.875 magnesium.

    Do you see where your problem lies?

    You can literally NEVER get back to the concentrations of these ions that the salt mix contains by doing a 25% water change every week, let alone if you have even a medium-low usage tank. If you end up with a decently loaded tank, expect to be at low levels forever, possibly to the point of coral bleaching and death once your corals grow out. Like I said, usage will ALWAYS increase if you keep the same corals. They grow, and subsequently need more calcium, alk and magnesium, so they pull more out of the water.

    So, I see your response (quoted above), and it basically said "I came here for reinforcement of my ideas; I wasn't going to accept your opinions anyway, because I don't agree. Sorry that I didn't get the answer I wanted to hear." But you're wrong, as some simple math can prove.

    BTW, if price is the issue, you can buy from bulkreefsupply. That way, using the additive is MUCH cheaper than buying salt constantly. In their starter kit, you'd get enough to raise your levels for a year or more if you had utilization like my numbers would suggest. The starter kit costs as much as a bucket of salt, of which you'd need 4 or 5 to finish out a year at the rate you'll be using it.
     
  7. Corailline

    Corailline Super Moderator

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    If your parameters for ca, alk and mag are good before the water change then I am of the belief that no you do not need to dose a smaller system that does not have a lot of sps, clams or coralline aglae.

    Many of the trace elements you can not test for and doing routine water changes facilitates replenishment of them.

    Some of the great systems you see are using ca reactors, and other equipment that assist in sustaining adequate ca, pH and alk levels.

    Dosing part A/B and occassional mag works well for most people, and I do if I am not going to get around to a bi-monthly water change. Remember also that the tank you see are years old as well.

    I have seen many bad outcomes with dosing of iodine and or strontium, if you can not test for it you should not dose it. There is a lot of pressure on the hobbyist today to use the most current magical mircle supplements. If you do not want to and are doing the routine water changes and the levels are staying within range then don't dose. If you want to use some of the more modern advances in dosing do, but you do not have to by any means to have a nice system.
     
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  9. steve wright

    steve wright Super Moderator

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    My opinion based on my own experience

    I have had many tanks with softies and LPS over the years and a weekly water change of 5% along with some food based supplements where about all I needed and maintained parameters within acceptable ranges

    my last set up, started softie - so again the weekly water changes proved adequate
    I then got into SPS , adding a few at a time over a 12 month period and at same time reduced the number of softies

    I dont recall the exact point that I realised that 5% water changes would not be adequate going forward - my 1st clue was Alk or DKH which had given me weeks and weeks and weeks of 9 to suddenly becoming 8 - I dosed to compensate, 1 week later it was 8 again ( My mag was fine still at this point) thats when I realised I was going to have to dose to maintain 1 degree of DKH per week - I knew how much I needed to create that and spread it out over 5 nights per week ( all my SPS where frags)
    after a couple of weeks, I then noticed my Calcium had also dropped by 20- 30ppm that week and so had to start dosing that during day time again dividing the QTY by the 5 days

    (NB when I had softies my Calc was at 470 ish and my Mag was over 1500 at the same time I had the 9 DKH so for a couple of weeks my Calc had dropped but stayed between 410 and 430 so at that stage I did not dose but when it hit 400 thats when I added Calc to my weekly additives regime after 1st bringing it back up to 450 over 2 days)

    basically the demand just increases and increases up to a point that you realise the water changes are not going to compensate for what is utilised in any given week

    thats when you need to look at a system of additives IMO

    Steve
     
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  10. Tiburone9162003

    Tiburone9162003 Astrea Snail

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    Sps will require more of a dosing n supplements right? I have soft n zoas n they seen to be doing fine without putting any drugs in the water :) ..
     
  11. sostoudt

    sostoudt Giant Squid

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    thats usually the case with those corals, but supplements aren't drugs not anymore then calcium or vitamins are too you.

    I challenge you to completely cut vitamin C out of your diet completely, no vitamins and no foods containing it.




    In order to know the answer of whether you need to dose or not, you need to test those parameters intially when you are stocking to see if they stay relatively stable.
     
  12. Corailline

    Corailline Super Moderator

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    It is a dry heat, yeah right !

    I would not consider them drugs. They are needed by the corals/inverts, there really is no misleading representation in that.

    What supplements are you talking about specifically ? It is a very broad term.

    Are we talking trace elements?

    Carbons ?

    Food supplements ?

    Amino Acids ?

    Ca, buffers, mag ?