Unresolved Clown Trigger Velvet Hydrogen Peroxide

This is the 2nd thread I have started about this fish and I am doing so because I have some questions and a new approach. He has been being treated for only 3 days with cupramine and I have seen nearly no or only small improvements with his eyes clearing a bit and slight clearing of the spots. The fish is still only sitting on the bottom of the tank. No swimming at all but his breathing is slow and steady. Seems alert. I have done some reading on the effectivness of hydrogen peroxide on velvet. QUESTION #1...I realize it is highly toxic but it also is known to be extremely effective against velvet. How much can I add to a 20 gallon QT that is currently being treated with cupramine? I am asking because I think this fish could be on the cusp of death and at this point I figure its worth a shot. 75 PPM is what I understand is the best dose but I have know way of measuring and or knowing how much to add. Need some help here people. Thanks

 

Surely there are some people on here with a little experience with this???

 

Following!

Ryland can you provide a link where this is discussed, when you get a chance please. Also since hydrogen peroxide target bacterial and fungal pathogens, I wonder how effective it would be against parasitic disease such as Cryptocaryon irritans.

Interesting topic.

Edit: Did you see this link?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/sp/feature/index.php

 

The following came from the Marine Ornamental Fish and Invert Breeders Association.

Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment
by Onsan » Sat 23 Jan, 2010 3:18 pm

Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment in the control of external parasites such as A.ocellatum, C.irritans and Brooklynella.

Applications:

1. 50-75ppm Bath for 30mins. Used as a disinfectant for newly acquired fish before adding to QT and DT.

2. 50-75ppm Bath for 30mins as a treatment for fish suffering from an infectious parasitic outbreak. Does not prevent recurrent outbreaks of A.ocellatum or C.irritans in an infected system, only provides temporary relief if returned to an infected system. Treated fish should be removed from the system and the infected system left fishless for a period no shorter than 28days in order to break the life cycle.

3. 50-75ppm Bath for 30mins every 3 days for a period no shorter than 28days. Used as a means of breaking the life cycle of parasitic protozoans such as A.ocellatum and C.irritans within an infected system whilst fish remain in the system. All fish within the system must be treated, regardless of whether an infection appears to be present.


Preparing a Hydrogen Peroxide Bath:

To achieve a 50ppm solution.
2 L of Water in a glass or stainless steel tank/container.
Add 3.4ml of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
Add fish and maintain for 30mins
Do not aerate the water during treatment.
Return fish to QT or DT immediately as applicable.

To achieve a 75ppm solution.
2 L of Water in a glass or stainless steel tank/container.
Add 5ml of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide
Add fish and maintain for 30mins
Do not aerate the water during treatment.
Return fish to QT or DT immediately as applicable.

Please note, I've erred on the side of caution in my dosages preferring to use 50ppm/30mins as a general rule, many studies have shown longer and higher dosage rates are in common use and are effective. As this is relatively new in the aquarium industry and the effects on common aquarium species is unknown I have kept my dosages low. I initially trialled dosages of 75ppm which on it's first application on a severely infected fish seemed to cause some minor irritation, i interpreted this to be as a result of the density of open wounds exposed to the solution, on subsequent follow up treatments the fish did not show the same reaction.

Further potential applications lay in the control of Fungal outbreaks and external viral infections.

Treatment is applicable to both Freshwater and Saltwater pathogens.

Hydrogen Peroxide is an antibacterial, antifungal and antiviral and as such is NOT REEF SAFE. Treatments should be conducted in isolated baths.
It will kill algae, including coralline algae.

Hydrogen Peroxide is a caustic solution, it acts by oxidising cell walls, it is non toxic and completely breaks down to oxygen and water.

Evidence suggests that Hydrogen Peroxide aids in the the bodies natural immune system responses by signaling the convergence of white bloods cells resulting in a quicker healing process.

Hydrogen Peroxides oxidising reactions increase with temperature, higher temperatures require lower dosage rates, the above dosages were applied at 27C.

Links for further reading.

Research on the application of H2O2

Treatment of Catfish Eggs with Hydrogen Peroxide

Various Dosage Rates

Info on C.irritans and A.ocellatum Hydrogen Peroxide treatments

This is a relatively new treatment in the aquarium industry, however it is widely used in aquaculture especially in fish hatcheries where it is used in controlling pathogens on fish eggs, caution and user discretion is advised.

Make your own decisions on the suitability and application of this treatment, if you feel you cannot apply this with confidence you should seek more mainstream treatments as found on Reefpedia

 

Marine Ornamental Fish & Invert Breeders Association • View topic - Marine Velvet

Reefing The Australian Way Forums • View topic - Use of Hydrogen Peroxide as a disinfectant treatment

 

As far as ich goes I believe the collective answer I have read on this question is yes it is effective. Most of the studies however have been on velvet are are surprisinly effective. Thinking about giving this a shot!

 

Well good luck Ryland, I hope the fish pulls through for you.

He/she is going to need a very good name should it make it. Hydrogen seems appropriate for a number of reasons.

 

I was at a lfs when I saw this fish seemingly clinging to life. Covered in velvet. The manager saw me and asked if I was interested. I said no way that fish will be dead in a day or two without treatment. She asked if I could treat it to which I replied yes but I dont think it can be saved at this point. She said take it. You can have it. This is how I ended up with this guy.

Somehow he is clinging to life. He has not moved off the bottom of the tank but to readjust himself from time to time. Starting to get skinny and he will not eat!. The velvet appears (and I use that with hesitation) to be getting better. I have raised the temperature of the tank to 82 degrees, I keep the room very dimly lit, and I have raised the cupramine concentration from the recommended .5 ppm to .6 ppm and by tommorrow .7 ppm. I also do daily small water changes to keep water quality high. I am in the room with that fish 10 minutes a day tops. Doing my best but I am afriad it is futile.

 

I did read the other thread, and this seems like the perfect fish treat aggressively with alternative treatments. The fish surely would have been dead a couple days ago had you not taken it. Since you have not see a great deal of improvement it's a really hard decision on whether to forge ahead with the current treatment or try something new. Either way you are contributing to the knowledge base, so that is a good thing in my book.

 

Thank you for the encouragement. I am treating him as aggressively as I deem he can take. While I believe a hydrogen peroxide bath would be highly stressful I think that if he can survive that initial dose he might stand a fighting chance. My question is though should I do a complete water change while he is being dipped? Or should I continue with the cupramine levels? The jury seems to be out on this on a couple of different threads. IMHO he is so sick I need to keep up the cupramine (even at the cost of copper being toxic).