cloudy tank

Hi, I am very interested in Dr. Tim's products but I don't know which ones best suit my situation.
My tank started on zeovit method a while back. Couple things I did turned the whole thing into a mess. First I didn't use adequate amount of zeolith and second, I overdosed zeostart (carbon dosing). This results in a cloudy tank (bacteria bloom). The problem is now whenever I added one drop of carbon (zeostart3 or vinegar), the tank water turn foggy with bacteria bloom. I measured nitrite which is zero(salifert), phosphate zero (hanna checker), nitrate is about 2.5ppm. My sps frags are dying with each bloom and are turning brown first. My guess I have shifted the bacteria population from autotrophic based to a more heterotrophic based ones and that's why with a tiny drop of carbon dosing; bacteria bloom results. There is barely any algae growth at all. I had this with a smaller tank and the solution was to stop carbon dosing for two to three months and then dosing carbon was no longer a problem. I don't want to wait so long for this tank. Should I purchase one and only nitrifying bacteria or should I purchase eco-balance/clear up? Does clear up clears a bacteria bloom? Final question is will waste away break down undigested food or dissolved organic carbon so it can be removed by skimmer? Thanks

 

It sounds to me if I read your post correctly, you probably have the solution - stop the dosing and then restart.....how long did it take to clear up after you stopped dosing? The chemistry folk here I'm sure can give you a much more "in depth" analysis and advice that I would defer to....

 

bacteria bloom usually will stop in 72 hours, sometimes 48 hours.

 

If that's the case, I would just do that.......when you start to add too much to fix things it can then cause some additional things to happen from the interactions and such....as I'm learning, I think keeping it as simple as possible is the way to go....

 

True. I still have to ask, based on my experience that carbon dosing will eventually cause some hetertrophic bacteria to go bonkers. So which bottle of Dr. Tim's product will be compatible with carbon dosing? I want to purchase waste away to tackle cyanobacteria in my other tanks and doesn't want a repeat of bacteria blooms.

 

Dr. Tims?

Carbon dosing?

I'd stop both, thats my advice, and get a filter sock/bag. But that's just me

 

hello

Some questions below to help me understand your situation better

Are you still running the zeovit system?
Are you running a protein skimmer?
GFO?
Other?

Your tank is not really ever an autotrophic based system. The heterotrophic bacteria quickly out number the autotrophic nitrifiers and control the overall microbial processes but this is not important to your problem.

Ok, but in later posts you say you have a cyanobacteria problem - is that the case?

For sure stop adding the carbon solution for now it is only causing problems.
Clear-Up does NOT clear a bacterial bloom - use waste-away for that. Clear-Up is a flocculate-type product.
One and Only will NOT help either.

I recommend using Waste-Away but would like to have the answers to questions I've asked before giving you a clear path to follow.

Code:

Final question is will waste away break down undigested food or dissolved organic carbon so it can be removed by skimmer? Thanks

Yes waste-away breaks down both undigested food, dissolved organics, undissolved organics and converts them into bacteria cells which are then removed by the skimmer.


Will get back to you once I read your answers.

DrTim

 

Are you still running the zeovit system?
Yes, I am still using zeovit (too much investment); but I stop dosing
Are you running a protein skimmer? Yes, and it's oversized; but it doesn't remove bacteria bloom like I thought it would
GFO? No GFO as it's not recommended by zeovit system
Other? I added a algae scrubber as an experimental thing; but it's not growing yet. (The cyano problem is for my other smaller tank; sorry for the confusion)




Quote:
Your tank is not really ever an autotrophic based system. The heterotrophic bacteria quickly out number the autotrophic nitrifiers and control the overall microbial processes but this is not important to your problem.

I thought the "good" bacteria are the nitrifiers and they are the backbone of the filtration system and that's why we add them to start the cycle? That's why I thought the one and only will be my savior! I have dosed zeobak and biomate (zeovit based bacteria). They don't stop bacteria bloom if carbon dosing continues. Granted I don't dose zeobak everyday because 1. too expensive 2. not in the instruction. There is minimum to no algae growth (except for some crystalline algae growth) in this tank and very low to undetectable nitrate (2.5ppm) and phosphate (0 ppm hanna checker). I was thinking to myself low nutrients, no algae growth + bacteria bloom when dosing carbon, the bacteria population must be skewed. I searched the internet and all the articles said autotrophs grows very slowly and hetertrophs grow very fast; autotrophs are better at dealing nutrients. (here is an example： Bacterial Blooms and Cloudy Aquarium Water « Dallas Aquarium Experts 469 450 3900 Call us today! ） Hence, I don't have enough autotrophs.


Quote:
There is barely any algae growth at all.
Ok, but in later posts you say you have a cyanobacteria problem - is that the case?

Again, sorry for the confusion.


While searching the forum, I notice you suggested using refresh first followed by waste away. Is it only for cyano problem or is it a routine protocol? Finally, Can you tell me when do you recommend adding eco-balance? If one already has re-fresh and waste away, do they perform the functions of eco-balance or vice versa? Thanks

 

So you still have the substrate (the zeolite) which contains colonies of bacteria. When you add the carbon these bacteria bloom in the water. The zeolite is your source of bacteria.

It might be oversized but it does not seem to be working according to you. You should be able to see a scum that is the bacteria. If you're not removing bacteria with the skimmer than the bacteria are re-cycling the nutrients in the tank and you are not removing the nutrients

Hmm - not sure what to make of this but you say nothing growing on the material you have in place but you have lights on the material all the time?

Couple of things because you have confused several issues.

First, the article you refer to it pretty good - it does have some things wrong but most of the errors don't pertain to the issue we're discussing.

Second, we need nitrifiers because fish excrete ammonia and if you don't get rid of the ammonia the fish will eventually die from ammonia poisoning. But once the nitrifers are established they play an important role but by numbers represent very little of the total bacteria population in the aquarium. My Ph.D. research showed only 5% max of bacterial population in an established tank were nitrifiers - the rest are heterotrophic bacteria.

Third, nitrifiers are autotrophic bacteria which means don't use organic carbon - they don't use vinegar or sucrose or sugar or any of that stuff. By definition they get their carbon from carbon dioxide. So you can 'dose' all you want and you'll never grow nitrifiers. Heterotrophic bacteria, again, by definition, get their carbon from organic carbon. So when you dose you are adding organic carbon in some form and promoting the growth of heterotrophic bacteria which is the bloom you see. The bacteria biomass in the zeolite is a ready source of bacteria and since your skimmer is not working very well you get a bloom every time you dose.

Fourth

this is wrong. I am not sure where you got this idea, I could not find in the article you quoted. Nutrients to ALL bacteria are carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. But the type of carbon differs as I have mentioned between autotrophs and heterotrophs. Also the source of nitrogen can vary (cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen from the air but I digress), as for phosphorus they all want orthophosphate or what scientists call soluble reactive phosphate (SRP). The ratio of carbon:nitrogenhosphorus for all bacteria is generally 50:10:1. Now given what I just wrote if heterotrophic bacteria can divide faster than autotrophic bacteria they will consume more nutrients because there will be more of them. Which is exactly what happens. As the article says heterotrophic bacteria in the aerobic state can divide in 20 minutes (versus 20 to 30 HOURS for a nitrifier). So do the math - in one day one heterotrophic bacterium becomes a huge number of bacteria - I don't even know what the name of the number is - it is way over a billion. While the autotrophic bacterium become 2 (yes only 2!) bacteria. So who is going to deal with nutrients better? I think the answer is clear.

Yes only for a cyano or algae problem but some people have found that adding Re-Fresh once a month or so really helps their tank. We recommend adding Eco-Balance every 4th time you would add waste-away. You add it instead of waste-away. So if you are adding waste-away once a week every 4th week add eco-balance instead of waste-away.

Eco-balance are true probiotic bacteria. I say true because we have done the work (some of which is in on the website) to isolate strains they produce bactercins (substances that kill other bacteria) against a few species of Vibrio and other probiotic properties.

Hope this helps

Cheers

DrTim

 

Wow! This is so informative. Thank you for giving an in-depth answer. I have just few more questions. One, does a skimmer prevent a bacteria bloom? Because you seem to imply that given an adequate skimmer a bacteria bloom will not happen? According to an article on advancedaquarist, skimmers only remove a fraction of bacteria. Two, given the nature of heterobacteria you described, how come they don't just population explode when given substance like biopellets? I mean one can still measure trace amount of nitrate and phosphate even with biopellets. Three, if I were to introduce waste-away, eco-balance, refresh into a zeovit based system, will the bacteria co-exist or they fight to death and cause a tank crash. (Just asking for a friend who's also doing zeovit, but have hair algae problem). Thanks