Balling Method explained by Dr. Balling on video

Discussion in 'General Reef Topics' started by yvr, Jan 28, 2014.

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  1. yvr

    yvr Skunk Shrimp

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    Hi I've been researching about using the Balling Method on my 90 gal mixed LPS/SPS tank. I found this video today of Dr. Balling explaining how to best use his method.

    I hope this helps anyone like me confused about the Balling Method and it should be used.


    The Balling Method explained by Hans-Werner Balling - YouTube
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2014
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  3. rcflyer1388

    rcflyer1388 Bubble Tip Anemone

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    basically this would allow you to skip out on water changes to eliminate that ionic imbalance?
     
  4. Mr. Bill

    Mr. Bill Native Floridian

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    My answer is no...

    If the sodium chloride is maintaining the sg, how would one know when they need part 3 without testing for the other 60+ ions found in seawater?

    How would you keep your sg from going off the scale?

    Mr. Balling makes an important point, but you can't just keep adding salt mix to the same volume of water. IMO, he has only validated the need for water changes. The excess sodium chloride must be removed, not just countered.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
  5. rcflyer1388

    rcflyer1388 Bubble Tip Anemone

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    Makes sense what you're saying. You are basically stocking up on the different elements in the tank and the sodium chloride is still there in it's "balanced" state. I figured through protein skimming you would remove the excess sodium chloride. I know that between water changes, since I have my skimmer skimming a bit wet, my SG goes down by about 2 points as the top off water replaces the skimmed out water. I perform a water change once a month.
     
  6. Servillius

    Servillius Montipora Digitata

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    Hold on. This was my initial reaction too, but when you think it through it makes more sense than that. You still absolutely need to do water changes.

    His point is only that we don't dose 2 part. We dose 2 part plus magnesium. Magnesium is the third most available ion in sea salt. Potassium is next and in some systems this can get depleted.

    What he is saying is you need to dose 2 part plus (magnesium plus all that other stuff, not just magnesium). Well, another way to describe that is to call it salt mix without the sodium chloride.

    We're already adding the magnesium which is a big chunk of that (probably half of the remaining 30%). It is not inconcievable that ideally we would include a range of other trace elements to keep them from getting depleted.

    We could accomplish the same thing with big enough water changes, but the same is true of dosing any of this stuff at all. His point is that there is a proper ratio of addition for all these things and this 3 part provides it.
     
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  7. rcflyer1388

    rcflyer1388 Bubble Tip Anemone

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    Sounds like a fancy 2 part system with the Mag additive having all the trace elements as well. I guess nothing worth spending money on that a simple monthly water change won't fix and regular 2 part for in between changes adjustments. In the end with this method, you still will end up with more sodium chloride as you're dosing cal/alk except it's just a completed ion, but it's still concentrating in the tank. In other words I don't think it does anything special to the tank.
     
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  9. Todd_Sails

    Todd_Sails Giant Squid

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    Isn't that what any decent Salt mix would do during a WC?
     
  10. Servillius

    Servillius Montipora Digitata

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    Well, yes. But remember, big enough water changes would also make any 2 part dosing at all unnecessary.

    Water changes, roughly speaking, do two things. They dillute, and they replenish. It takes a lot of water changes to replenish some of the stuff in our systems.

    Also remember the math. A 10% water change a week adds 10% of the difference between the net value and your salt mix value of whatever stuff we're talking about (roughly speaking) to the tank. If your consumption is 20%, you're screwed.

    That is the situation we find ourselves in with Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium. He's claiming there is other stuff this is true for too. He may be right. It doesn't appear to be stuff we're really suffering without... but that doesn't mean its not there or has no effect.
     
  11. nc208082

    nc208082 Zoanthid

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    servillus is right on.
    heres an excerpt on an overview of the balling system,

    "Why 3 part dosing or "balling light" is not the same as the Hans-Werner Balling system made by Tropic Marin, and in fact how 2-3 part of balling light systems are an issue for all of you that dose these.

    The important part is learning about the relationship between the ions of Calcium chloride and sodium Bi-carbonate is important when dosing minerals into your delicate system, learning especially how the coral polyp takes in the calcium ion from the calcium chloride element and the carbonate ion from the sodium element and what is left behind "UNBALANCED SODIUM CHLORIDE" . In balling light system or 3 part THIS is where your imbalance comes from.

    Left behind is sodium from the Bi-carbonate and chloride from the calcium, these two together of course make sodium chloride, and here lies the imbalance in 3 part, all of a sudden you have extra sodium chloride with no other elements attached to it floating around in your tank, and by doing a water change you are only removing the percentage of that water change of the imbalance.

    So if you are dosing 2 or 3 part light systems and rely on water changes alone to address the imbalance you are only removing for example on a 10% water change, 10% of that imbalance.

    Now - by adding into the mix Part C the remaining sodium chloride has something to balance it which includes the 70 trace elements

    Now of course there is an argument that this system too raises your sodium chloride level, and yes you are right, BUT and here is the defining factor, it is doing it in a balanced format in the same way you would be doing by adding more sea salt to your system, because it is balanced there is no ionic risks, and even the most minimal water change would cater for any salinity rise, however due to being in balance and such a very low level this is not an issue, where as an unbalanced system with just sodium chloride floating about is.

    What is an issue however are 3 part or light systems that allow for free amounts of sodium chloride in your system with nothing to balance it allowing for a complete imbalance that can not be addressed wholly by water changes as you only remove the % of water change and as such only remove that % of imbalance.

    There is only one way to keep a system in balance when dosing calcium and sodium Bi-carbonate and that is to add in proportion NACL free salt. (Part C)

    To make the point clearer, the very first original Sea Salt mix from Tropic marin that still to this day forms the basis of all their salts is a 100% mixture of A B and C of the Tropic Marin Balling system together!

    So there is no argument chemistry in itself proves it, if you dose a system with nothing to balance the excess NACL you create an imbalance, and this is where part C comes in which is made up of everythign you find in a sea salt mix including all trace elements without adding additional NACL, hence the term for part C as NACL-FREE sea salt. But lets be clear Part C is not just magnesium as in every other other 3 part system, it is the whole bells and whistles found in sea salt as stated before WITHOUT any NACL component."

    HTH clear some points up about this system.
     
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  12. Todd_Sails

    Todd_Sails Giant Squid

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    So are you changing 100% with this Balling 3 Part?
    Then you're changing what, 10%, 20%? And this % is now back in 'balance'?

    Just like doing a WC with prepared salt?

    Or are you dosing this also? as in a Kalwasser drip would put back the Alk and Ca?
    And this is assumning all these extra elements somehow get 'used up' to?
    Where does it go? Does it evaporate?-No? Do the corals/algae/fish eat/use it? maybe?
    Can you test for all these?- I actually think you can, if you wanted to.
    Will this improve my already successful Reef? maybe, but how would I know?
    My coral grows well now, and even better with my new 'Poor-mans full spectrum dimmable LED's!

    Sounds reasonable, just not for me atm.

    OH, and btw- although I've read thru RHF's 2 part system directions- I don't really dose '2 part', not that way anyways.