Advice I received on ICH, today...

Discussion in 'Diseases' started by JKT69, Jun 27, 2009.

to remove this notice and enjoy 3reef content with less ads. 3reef membership is free.

  1. JKT69

    JKT69 Astrea Snail

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    Messages:
    38
    Today I was at the fish store, told the owner I believe I had a case of ICH and that I have read the best course of action is to leave the tank fallow for 8 weeks, is that the way I should go...he told me, NO. Leave it empty for 14 days...if in that time frame ICH has no host to attach to, it will go dormant. If there is nothing " alive" in the tank for 8 weeks then the tank will need to recycle again.

    Bottom line, I was told, in 14 days of no fish I should be safe to add 1 and keep an eye on it...all tanks have ICH in it, it's just some are active, other are dormant.

    I have read a lot of info in ICH, and today is the latest info I recieved...I would be interested in your thoughts on this. As you know, this hobby can be very confusing as there are about 100 different opinions on how to do to things.
     
  2. Click Here!

  3. m_hsiao

    m_hsiao Purple Spiny Lobster

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    466
    14 days would not do the trick to get rid of ich completely
    i've probably given advice about ich at least 10 times now, you can go search on some info people have received on different cases of ich..
    i would say 90+% of tank have ich, the difference being if the fish are healthy enough to fight off the ich and stay immune to the ich and not having it appear on it's body..
    even after 8 weeks of you waiting and finally getting rid of all the ich in your tank, any fish that comes from the LFS after 8 weeks can carry ich and there it goes again, ich back in your tank..
    don't worry about the ich, it's like a cold to human.. can a human sustain themself from cold forever? not possible..
    just keep your water quality up and make sure your fish are eating, that's all you have to worry about.. feed the fish some garlic soaked food to help boost its immune system
     
  4. bioreefdude

    bioreefdude Fu Manchu Lion Fish

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,932
    Location:
    stockton ca
    What is Cryptocaryon?

    Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease is caused by an infestation of the ciliated protozoan Cryptocaryon irritans. Although just like the ich organisms Oodinium (Marine Ich, Velvet or Coral Fish Disease) and Brooklynella (Clownfish Disease) that also become parasitic to fish at one stage in their life cycle, Crypto progresses less rapidly. If detected early and treated promptly upon an outbreak, the chances of recovery are high. However, in a closed aquarium system it can reach overwhelming and disastrous numbers just the same if it is not taken care of.

    The Life Cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans

    * Free-swimming cells called tomites are released from a mature tomont, or encrusted cyst, and go in search of a host fish, typically dying in a day or two if one is not found.
    * Upon finding a host the tomites attach to the gills or body and develop into parasitic trophonts, at which stage the organisms burrow into the fish and begin feeding on its tissues.
    * Once well fed the trophonts stop feeding and encyst, at which stage they become inactive tomonts. These dormant cysts can remain trapped in the fish's mucus, be inbedded deep in the tissue, or drop off and fall to the bottom. Over a period of 6 to 10 days the cells inside the cysts reproduce by single-cell division, and become tomites. Once reaching maturity the cysts rupture, each releases hundreds of new free-swimming tomites, and the cycle begins again, but in much larger numbers.

    Symptoms

    Unlike Oodinium and Brooklynella that typically attack the gills first, which allows these ich diseases to advance into life-threatening levels quickly as they go unnoticed, Cryptocaryon usually appears at the onset as salt-sized white spots visible on the body and fins of a host fish, and when the organisms become parasitic, it is then that they move inwards to the gills. Because crypto is more easily recognized in its beginning stage, this makes it much easier to treat and cure before it gets out of control.

    Aside from the appearance of the white spots, fish will scratch against objects in an attempt to dislodge the parasites, and rapid respiration develops as tomonts, mucus, and tissue debris clogs the gills. Fish become listless, refuse to eat, loss of color occurs in patches or blotches as the trophonts destroy the pigment cells, and secondary bacterial infections invade the lesions caused by the trophonts.

    Treatment Recommendations

    Although copper is very effective on Oodinium, and it works well to eliminate crypto organisms in their free-swimming tomite stage, it is not as effective on the Cryptocaryon trophonts that burrow deeply into the tissues of fish. A combination of freshwater and formalin treatments administered by means of dips, baths, and prolonged treatment over a period of time in a QT is recommended.

    >> How To Treat Ich Diseased Fish with Formalin

    Preventing Reinfestation

    Reinfection will occur no matter how effectively the fish have been treated if Cryptocaryon is not eradicated from the main aquarium, which can be accomplished by keeping the tank devoid of any fish for at least 4 weeks. For fish-only aquariums hyposalinity can be applied, and to speed up the life cycle of the organisms, elevate the tank reef aquariums, Ruby Reef Kick-Ich and Chem-Marin Stop Parasites are "reef safe" formulated treatments that specifically target the Crytpocaryon organims.

    Several days prior to returning fish to the main aquarium, clean all filtering equipment, change any filtering materials, and perform a water change.

    ~ Debbie & Stan Hauter
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. n1sm0r

    n1sm0r Spanish Shawl Nudibranch

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    Holy misinformation batman.



    I left my tank fallow for 6 weeks and STILL got ick when I reintroduced my fish. I now swear by the 8 weeks fallow. It's not overkill, it's just to guarantee no ich.
     
  6. lotzofish

    lotzofish Fire Worm

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Ohio
    I posted an informational piece about crypt a couple of weeks ago. Please see here for some answers to your questions: http://www.3reef.com/forums/diseases/ultimate-saltwater-ich-crypt-info-post-66950.html#post641290
    I don't believe that 14 is sufficient time to eradicate crypt for any system. The life cycle is about 30 days, and the little buggers can last even longer than that, at times.

    Hmmm... perhaps the recurrence was due to stress induced from reintroduction into the DT?


    I don't like the idea of having crypt in any system. Even if you can't see it, it still lives in the gills (assuming that it is in the system). How many people can live a normal life span with chronic lung problems? I just think that even if you can't see it, the fish's lives could still be shortened. :)
     
  7. JKT69

    JKT69 Astrea Snail

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    Messages:
    38
    Thanks for the feedback. I have very small, white, "bugs" all over my live rock. I doubt that is the free swimmers, or is it? I think not because they have been there for a week or so.
     
  8. Click Here!

  9. bioreefdude

    bioreefdude Fu Manchu Lion Fish

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,932
    Location:
    stockton ca
    most likely isopods or some type of pod good thing
     
  10. Dr.Fragenstein

    Dr.Fragenstein Panda Puffer

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,108
    Location:
    SE Wisconsin
    Like stated, not ick, bethnic invert of some sort...if small dots and not "comma" shaped most likely just a copepod.... You will not see ick if it is not on your fish....

    And the dormancy thing is true, Delbeek proved it recently. 14 days will not kill the ick but without fish pheremones in the tank, after a few days the ick will revert to dormancy.
    Your best bet for complete removal is to copper the DT, since most of us have inverts we can't so we can set up a LARGE QT large enough to house ALL fish for at least 14 days, then copper the QT and try to add a cup of water from a tank with fish into your DT... This can be tough because if all your fish are in a tank with copper, many people will be hesitant to add that water into the DT.... This is when a friend with a tank or a seperate tank works best.
    You can also try a reef safe med on the DT with the fish in the tank but most aren't aggressive enough to kill all ick, most but not all. They tend to weaken the ick enough for the fish to get over it and then leaves some to lay in wait for another period of stress.
     
  11. PharmrJohn

    PharmrJohn The Dude

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,615
    Location:
    Shelton, Washington
    To my knowledge, the only way to get rid of ich in a tank is to decrease your SG to a very carefully monitored 1.008 to 1.009 for a time (would have to look that one up again). And I would still not fully trust it. Ich is a wonderful (by survival standards) organism. I would always expect it in your tank. Just keep your parameters in check and your fish in an overall healthy environment....you will see ich come and go fleetingly wtih no adverse effects.
     
  12. Dr.Fragenstein

    Dr.Fragenstein Panda Puffer

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,108
    Location:
    SE Wisconsin
    Copper.... Will nuke it 100% IF you dose it correctly...

    You think ick is amazing by survival standards look into velvet...amyloodinium ocellatum, THATS amazing!!