OK! Time for a Drink! Vodka?

[Scott Osborne]

I do have some preserved Gram Stains of the bacteria before and after the dosing cycle. Those are cheap do as I have a freind who runs a pediatricians office and he gave me the stuff to do them. I do know there is a big increase in Bacteria a month into the cycle. You get the same spike in BioOptim and BioDigest. Like I said I don't know the identity of each item on the Gram stain. I would like to send them away to get stuff identified but its pretty expensive.

I for one would like to see some convincing science from ZEO, Prodibio, and Polyp-Labs. That their system selectively only increases the positive Bacteria. I know that these systems have you dose the bacs that they say are good and then have you dose a carbon fuel for them to multiple. Still I dont think there is anyway to know what exactly your doing with carbon dosing of [u]Any[u] kind. I have not had problems as of yet with either Prodibio or sugar. I question however the feeding aspect of these system. I am not sure if either is worth the risk to provide a food source for coral. I will still continue to use Sugar because I know that it allows me to over feed. I've tried it both ways. Without the sugar I get Nitrate spikes. Currently with the pappone feeding method I think that the sugar is the best way to go. Thats why its in the pappone food.

[JasonSquared]

For any newbies that run into trouble, because people here are looking out for your best interest, I thought I'd do the same.

Carbon overdose:

Of you overdose or suspect an overdose, or just want to be precautionary. Run your skimmer, but be ready to empty it fast as nitrogen becomes limiting and the bacs die off causing your skimmer to do what you hired it for. Run an airstone or two, as well as a powerhead venturi if you have one to get bubbles into your water to maintain oxygenation. A water change is advised as well.

And since were at it, I should add that ALL the things you put into your tank are dangerous if overdosed, and since Otty is concerned, and since the manufacturers didn't put any kind of information as to what to do (even though I did for carbon dosing) in the event of an over dose I thought I list them here. Or at least what I'd do.

Kalkwasser overdose: Change as much water as possible, as quickly as possible, add club soda to lower pH

Food overdose: Get a small net and get out what you can. Follow by wet skimming.

[/size][/size]Coral food overdose: Run skimmer wet, and expect to have nitrate problem in a few days

Calcium overdose: If Calcium precipitation occurs, change mechanical filtration every hour. If no precipitation occurs. Add no more Ca until it drops below 450, and just maintain ALK levels. Vice Versa for Alk overdose.

Trace Element overdose (like half a bottle when it says 1 tsp): Run as much Carboon as you can and do a 50% water change. Test to find what the levels are if possible, and perform another 50% water change if necessary.

Oh and since the manufacturers didn't think to post what to do in case you drop something un reef related, I figured I do THAT too.

You drop bleach into your tank: Use a quart per 50 gallon of GAC (Granular Activated Carbon) and change it every hour. Remove fish and corals.

You drop Ammonia or glass cleaner into your tank: Remove ALL livestock from tank immediately, run lots of GAC, and allow about a month to re- cycle your live rock.


You use Kitty litter instead of sand: Remove kitty litter, run carbon and remove livestock, do 100% water change and re cycle your rock and add fresh sand



I think that covers all the overdose scenarios that I can think of...

[Otty]

Thanks, I like that and will keep that in my library for future reference. Karma!

[geekdafied]

Originally Posted by JasonSquared

At least nobody has reported it to my knowledge and I have been following this for over 2 years...

Do you really think somebody who preaches about something after trying a product or method for a few weeks to a few months and then it crashes their tank, do you think they are going to come back and say "Oh I was wrong about all of this, it devastated my tank". Or when stuff starts dropping off one by one in a mysterious way, do you think they will think about adding carbon would be the source after all these people praise it? This whole conversation is just like talking about DSB's. All these people praise them cause they read it in a book from a english lit major who published the book himself with his own publishing company. 4-6yrs later when their tank crashes, they're left scratching their heads as to why it happened cause they did everything they read somewhere.

Some things should be left up to the pro's and chemists because you can show me an article praising one thing, and I can show you 2 saying something totally opposite, thats how science works. You change one variable in the equation, and you get a totally different result.

on a side note (somebody touched on this in a earlier post)the whole global warming thing... Those climatologists who preach about global warming, you can change one varible in their climate forecast programs and you get a totally different outcome. Thats why they says "May" happen, cause they dont know.Al Gore will say it will happen cause he will be dead and gone when the time comes for his predictions to be proven right or wrong. but yeah to my point of this side note... I saw on the news 2 weeks ago where these scientists were studing global warming in the artic and had to be rescued cause the weather was a lot worse then they predicted during their study their.

[JasonSquared]

Originally Posted by geekdafied

Do you really think somebody who preaches about something after trying a product or method for a few weeks to a few months and then it crashes their tank, do you think they are going to come back and say "Oh I was wrong about all of this, it devastated my tank". Or when stuff starts dropping off one by one in a mysterious way, do you think they will think about adding carbon would be the source after all these people praise it? This whole conversation is just like talking about DSB's. All these people praise them cause they read it in a book from a english lit major who published the book himself with his own publishing company. 4-6yrs later when their tank crashes, they're left scratching their heads as to why it happened cause they did everything they read somewhere.

Some things should be left up to the pro's and chemists because you can show me an article praising one thing, and I can show you 2 saying something totally opposite, thats how science works. You change one variable in the equation, and you get a totally different result.

on a side note (somebody touched on this in a earlier post)the whole global warming thing... Those climatologists who preach about global warming, you can change one varible in their climate forecast programs and you get a totally different outcome. Thats why they says "May" happen, cause they dont know.Al Gore will say it will happen cause he will be dead and gone when the time comes for his predictions to be proven right or wrong. but yeah to my point of this side note... I saw on the news 2 weeks ago where these scientists were studing global warming in the artic and had to be rescued cause the weather was a lot worse then they predicted during their study their.

I appreciate your post. However I DO think that at least SOME people of the hundreds would say Hmmm... I think that I lost this and that after dosing, and I NEVER lost ANYTHING before... I going to start a thread on the dangers of carbon dosing... Nobody has.

I share your thoughts on Science, and it is flawed. Especially with extremely complex issues -The Human Body, or any mammal for that matter, Weather/Climate, and obvoiusly ocean envirmonments.

I can't say that carbon dosing will work great in every case. What I can say is that it is safe to a reasonable level and worth trying in cases where other methods of Nitrogen removal have failed, or people would like to experiment with it. But like EVERYTHING in this hobby, what works for X might not work for Y, and geekdafied I'm sure you know that with reasonable certainty too.

[geekdafied]

Originally Posted by JasonSquared

I appreciate your post. However I DO think that at least SOME people of the hundreds would say Hmmm... I think that I lost this and that after dosing, and I NEVER lost ANYTHING before... I going to start a thread on the dangers of carbon dosing... Nobody has.

I share your thoughts on Science, and it is flawed. Especially with extremely complex issues -The Human Body, or any mammal for that matter, Weather/Climate, and obvoiusly ocean envirmonments.

I can't say that carbon dosing will work great in every case. What I can say is that it is safe to a reasonable level and worth trying in cases where other methods of Nitrogen removal have failed, or people would like to experiment with it. But like EVERYTHING in this hobby, what works for X might not work for Y, and geekdafied I'm sure you know that with reasonable certainty too.

Carbon dosing is too risky, especially for newbs, some newb will see a thread like this, and run off to the liquor store without reading the whole thread. I know when I first got into this hobby, like everybody else, who read something somewhere and see an idea, and would run off with it thinking its the next big thing. Then when my tank would screw up, I was left scratching my head cause I did it how the article I read said to. I learned a long time to research research and research some more before doing anything to your tank. IMHO, I would rather find the source of the problem and correct it, then trying some magical cure. Jason, you said your rocks were leaching no3 back into your tank, to me that says flow issues. Open up your rock work a little more, possible make some kind of spray bar that directs flow through your live rock so nothing builds up in the unseen parts of it.

I personally like thinking out of the box and enjoy reading new ways of doing things, but not any kind of "quick fix" which is what adding carbon to a tank is. Thats putting a band-aid on it and hoping it goes away.

[JasonSquared]

Originally Posted by geekdafied

Carbon dosing is too risky, especially for newbs, some newb will see a thread like this, and run off to the liquor store without reading the whole thread. I know when I first got into this hobby, like everybody else, who read something somewhere and see an idea, and would run off with it thinking its the next big thing. Then when my tank would screw up, I was left scratching my head cause I did it how the article I read said to. I learned a long time to research research and research some more before doing anything to your tank. IMHO, I would rather find the source of the problem and correct it, then trying some magical cure. Jason, you said your rocks were leaching no3 back into your tank, to me that says flow issues. Open up your rock work a little more, possible make some kind of spray bar that directs flow through your live rock so nothing builds up in the unseen parts of it.

I personally like thinking out of the box and enjoy reading new ways of doing things, but not any kind of "quick fix" which is what adding carbon to a tank is. Thats putting a band-aid on it and hoping it goes away.

As far as flow goes I had 2 2600 gph maximods, and a 750 gph pump from the sump. Not really going to be flow that is going to be the problem there... Oh it was a 75 gallon tank. (total flow =5950 gph)

This isn't a quick fix either it takes dilligence, and even then you have to test redose, test again, the adjust your dosing. There's nothing too easy about it. However it is the way that water treatment plants choose to do the same thing... those lazy B@$t$*&

As far as the newbies go, it's up to them. I'm NOT going to be censored and withhold good information just because someone is too new to fully understand; at least in the opinions of some. I have posted the risks (not much of any really) and I am in favor of letting people make up their own minds, but let them be well informed minds. I can't help how you were as a newb. And I can't change how I was either. This sort of belief that adults are just going to do the wrong thing with any given information is EXTREMELY detrimental to the hobby, and VERY closed minded. You and others have stated your dissent, and now it's up to those that want to try this, or not. Stating that people are too stupid or impulsive to do it correctly is a misjudgment in my opinion. Let it go!

I will not defend this any more. It works, and it's not too difficult or risky. If anyone would like me to answer pertinent questions relating to how to do this correctly, maybe we can get this thread back on topic with what it was started as.

[lunatik_69]

I have a question for both, Jason and Scott .How long have you guys been doing this vodka thing? Would you consider 20ppm worth the treatment?

[JasonSquared]

I did it for about a year until I downsized my tank and used largely DIY rock. 20ppm? It depends on what you have tried up until now. I would definitely consider it if you haven't tried other things, you are at about the cutoff of what would put you in moderately high nitrate level category.

For now do a 20% water change, then measure your level. Then see how long it takes you to get back to 20ppm. If it's like a day, or it doesn't go down, you may need to look at other things. If it's a week, then up your water change schedule a bit, or the amount of water changed out and see where that gets you. It should go down.

[JasonSquared]

Also I tried Vodka, but couldn't keep it in the house, and due to the expense, quickly switched to sugar. But they work in EXACTLY the same way. You could also use molasses, or vinegar. But don't do that, I don't know what else may occur, or what else may be in them.