Totally Aerobic Nitrogen Cycle

[trying it again]

I wonder how old the link is that I posted earlier in this thread. I think that this system would have hit the headlines a lot sooner... but if it works for you thats great. Trying to reproduce mother nature is almost if not impossible. I have seen systems that made claims of never having to do water changes, but these system were up and running in the store ..... so every time, he sold livestock, he would have to replace the water that went out with the livestock. It seems the people here and every where else had success with the time tested methods. So maybe in 3 to 5 years if your system stays stable.. then that would be a breakthrough. This is, in no way an attack on your system, just a opinion from someone who is gettting back into the saltwater hobby.

[Blade_Runner]

If you say so, but I'm not sold.

I can sort of buy into someone discovering an aerobic strain of bacterial that will break down NO3 to N2 and O2. I am rather surprised with how fast breakthroughs run through the marine/reef community that this isn't all over the place. I'd love to have access to a documented 100% aerobic process. Post this up on RC and have a couple of the guru/chemists sign off on it and I'll really bite.

I still think the flow rate in the filter is way to high for your PH process. I'd need to see readings going into the filter, between the carbon and the rock and exiting the system to believe it. Going back to the manufacturer's web site a 100 gallon tank will require 17 pounds of carbon. (Is that the ratio you are using?) I'm guessing that the size of the filter to hold that is around 5-10 gallons (This is a totally BS SWAG guess). Basically, assuming the 10 gallon figure and a 1,000 gph flow, you are turning over the water 100+ times an hour within the filter. New water is entering the carbon filter is processed and is ejected in 30-40 seconds. A smaller filter or less carbon yeilds an even faster turn over. I simply have a very difficult time imagining a bacterial process that can significantly lower PH in 30 seconds in what is a fairly low energy environment. Carbonic and Nitric Acids are very weak. You would need to be producing huge amounts of it very rapidly to drop the PH in the filter to the mid 7s. This is the biggest single problem I have with your write up.

I'm also going to stick by my guns in saying NO3 doesn't go back to NO2 in a bacterial digestive process. That would require the addition of energy. Digestion doesn't work that way. This is a one way process. Fortunately, that statement isn't necessary to validate or disprove your filtration process. It's just a very odd statement. You will need to show me documented proof of that.

As I said before, this isn't an effort to attack you. Please don't take offense. I'm just trying to work through your assumptions. It seems to be working for you and that is great. Fortunately, I have systems that work well for me. It is very rare for me to loose a fish or have wacky readings. My newest tank is just stunning me on how good it is doing in a fairly short period of time. After 3 months NO2 and NO3 are all but undetectable. Against my "better" judgement I'm still on my original water. The tank never went through a significant spike and was moderately stocked in under 1 month. I would need to have a compelling reason to make dramatic changes, but with 4 marine tanks and a big DIY tilt I'm always interested in changes.

Later,

Bruce

[newagereefer]

Blade_runner, the reason this system wasn't all over the place is because in the aquarium trade there is a lot of resistant against anything new that would eliminate all sort of equipments. Understand the equipment mfg would have a lot to loose if people aren't buying the product anymore. I certainly not going to post anything on RC, the people on that board think they know it all and they are 110% against this.

The formula is .1667 X the volume of water to determent the amount of carbon you need. The flow rate is 10X not 100, so your number on the 10 gallon is incorrect.

Originally Posted by blade_runner

Carbonic and Nitric Acids are very weak.

Carbonic acid may be week but Nitric Acids are highly corrosive.
See: http://education.yahoo.com/reference...entry/nitricac

that is how you have a rapidly drop of pH to mid 7's, the same nitric acid enter the filter were the pH rock is, it react with the pH rock buffer the pH up to mid 8's. Over time the pH rock will dissolve and more will need to be added back to the filter.

Originally Posted by blade_runner

I'm also going to stick by my guns in saying NO3 doesn't go back to NO2 in a bacterial digestive process

In this process of Nitrogen L the NO3 does go back to NO2, the best way to understand this process is to talk to the person who invented this process.
I am a normal fish guy, who just not qualify to further explain this in more detail. His name is Bill, number is 562-428-9973 9-5 pst, he will be in the office tomorrow 2/20. If long distance is concern, give him your number he'll call you back on his dime. Just tell him "I don't believe your Nitrogen cycle can make NO3 goes back to No2", ask him to explain.

Originally Posted by blade_runner

As I said before, this isn't an effort to attack you. Please don't take offense.

I am not offend buy what you and trying it again wrote. At the very lest, we are having a civilize discussion on a process/product that may benefited this hobby. Believe me you are not the only one that question this process, people who walk in to my shop see the working system week after week they have hard time to believe too; even with a working system in front of them they still won't believe this is possible.

I've been setting up tank locally for a while using this system, people are happy with the result. The start up cost is lower then most setup for 100 gallon tank or smaller, less headache for me to maintain it. If your tank is doing great then don't touch it, that's what I told people, don't mess with it if you don't need to. "If you have it problem" I told them, " I may have a solution for you." Its up to them to choose which way they want to go, I don't force people to do anything they don't want to do.

[Phil5613]

This is a cool topic and is bringing intelligent questions to light. With all the DIY people around here I imagine some will try it on a small scale. Heck some may try it just to prove it wrong. But one thing we all have in common is wanting great health in our tanks and the best practiced method to doing that. Heres the kicker for me....Show me the money! I am a visual kinda guy show me it works. Show it to me in action. Show me a high demand/maintenance tank booming with success. Show me a tank that is years mature using this method. Show me tank parameters in pics (using accurate meters on the ingress and egress sides of a cycling tank and an established tank) We can all argue theory show me reality. DSB crashes, too much live stock too soon and equipment malfunctions all haunt us and lead to tons of caution but this reads like a fairytale "try this it works" system. I don't know if this hobby is that resistant to change...hell 20 years ago it was still bubble corner filters, then ug filters, then ug filters with powerheads, then ug filters with power heads and an outside filter, don't forget the canister filter and what about those wet/drys? Air lift protein skimmers bring back memories? I am totally willing to listen and experiment, my hold back is I hear nothing to the negative and value my livestock and investments to much to only look through rose colored glasses. What happens in the event of failure? How do you test and for what? I hear alot about how it works but when it doesn't what is the fix? Ok enough for now time to listen again.

[Blade_Runner]

I'll take a pass on calling in for now. As I mentioned, all is well at the home front. My current Jones is the quest for the perfect skimmer. It and the 300 are taking up enough of my time.

Phil, that is a long list of memories. I made my first skimmer out of a lift tube, an air stone and 1/2 of a shampoo bottle back in 86. How times have changed.

Maybe this is the next big thing. Maybe not. My last canister filter finally packed it in. The FOWLER it was on was/is healthy for years. For me there is no rush to jump on unproven technology.

[newagereefer]

Hey Phil it's funny you should mention the bubble corner filters, do you know this system will also work with a bubble corner filter? Would you like to see one in action? Let me know, I can setup one up tomorrow and put some clown or damsel in the same day, post the pics on a daily basis. I don't have the super duper meter yet(can't afford it they cost too much), all I have is the good old test tube type of test kit, would that be ok to use?

[Big Wally B]

Sorry for the delay. Been very busy.
I simply don't have the time to get into a big discussion, nor have someone explain why mine did not work. Defining failure is so easy. I did not do the right dance before "installing" the doohickeys into the thingamabob.
Success was cheaper, the proven way.
Blade and others have keenly covered most everything I would have. I just want to point out how much this sounds like an advertisement. If everyone in the hobby would just try our stuff,.........think how much money we will make!!!!

Your analysis is partly correct on the carbon. Once the carbon becomes a bio-filter we don't throw it out we BACK FLUSH IT!

We in this case indicates complicity.
Nuff said. Some eskimoes will buy ice from glib salesmen. This eskimo wants hamburger.

[newagereefer]

Let's try this, comments please.


5 gallon tank, air pump and large corner filter filled with tri-base carbon and pH rock. RN bacteria was added just before the fish were put in.



Day 1: Add 1 green chromis and 1 cardinal


Test result at end of day 1:
Temp: 82
pH: 8.5
ammonia: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 0
CA: 450

Day 2: (Today) Add 1 hermit


Water test will be conducted every 3 days.

[newagereefer]

Day 3:

2 small frags of coral were added
Water test were also conducted, same test result as before.

temp: 82
pH: 8.5
ammonia: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 0
CA: 450

here's the pics

[newagereefer]

This is day 5

I've decide to added a blue background and a treasure chest decor to the tank. The decor help keep the bubble filter in place.

Water test result are:

Temp:82
pH: 8.5
ammonia: 0
NO2:0
NO3:0
Alk: 180
CA:500ppm