Everyone should read this

[Birdlady]

Well, global warming is a natural phenomenon , and the world, including it's reefs have survived not only warming, but cooling (think, ice age).

Also, we are still in a low trough in the 1500 year hurricane cycle. Nothing new there either.

The landscape in NJ at the beach has changed drastically, due to dredging and sanding of beaches. If you look at the topography of Louisianna over the last 100 years, the rerouting of waterways has dramatically changed the natural land topography as well. The shape of land masses are always in flux and changing, it is called plate techtonics.

While I do agree, aquaculture is very important, and it stand a good chance that perhaps, one day, humans may actually help a reef recover from and actual man made disaster (maybe an oil spill or the like) I don't believe they will all die off from global warming. They were here long before us, and will likely be here long after....just my two cents

[Speedy]

Birdlady,

The ice ages might have happened and if they did it was before any type of actual civilization that was eco-intelligent existed. This global warming bit has happened in the last decade. With science, technology and enviromental knowledge at it's peak.

The article stated that the alaskan landscape had drastically changed not in years but in a time period of 6 months.

What's more in 1998 over 80-90% and in some areas of the carribean 100% of all corals where lost due to global warming.

And as far as I can see this global warming issue is a man made disaster.

[Birdlady]

Kindof like this volcanic activity, mistakenly attribuiting an excessive rise in sea level to melting ice caps?

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...mg18825245.500


Or perhaps this data and graphs correlating warming trends and ozone depletions with volcanic eruptions?

http://www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=891

There are two sides to every story, and the truth here is, IMHO, that we do not currently have enough data to make a determination 1) that the Earth is actually warming and 2) that it is humankinds fault.

I am still looking for info on your comments regarding the Carribbean. You are basically saying there is very little coral reef left in the Carribean? I find that difficult to believe actually. Do you have any links I could check out?

Global warming has been on the radar since the 70's , not just this last decade. Yet, there is no empirical evidence, only hypothesis (which of course, is how all scientific discoveries begin). I am not convinced yet.

[Big Wally B]

I'm with u BirdLady.
If I remember correctly, in the 70's the eco-terrorists said we should be worried about global cooling?
78% of VOC's are produced by pine trees and 91% of greenhouse gases are produced "naturally" (other than man-made) from vegetation, bovines breaking wind, other sun powered sources, etc.
With the advent of the internet, anyone who really wants to know how the weather has cycled over the last hundreds of years can find out (what little info we have.)
IMLO we appear to have limited effect, on purpose or not.

[Covey]

Coral reef have been around for like 300 million years. I am not saying that were being real good to them but think how many ice ages, mass extension, asteroid showers, and various other wholely worse events that they have survived. The reef are tougher than most give them credit for.

[Jason McKenzie]

Global warming maybe a cycle that has gone on for centuries, but perhaps the earths natural defences that helped our coral reefs survive have been depleted by man. Or perhaps the reefs didn't survive and we are only witness to younger reefs.
In Costa Rica, Clear cutting the forests to make farm land has caused excess silt build up on the reefs that has chocked out all life. The same phenomenon is taking place in the Pacific North West. As Salmon streams are filled with debris from the Forestry industry spawning grounds are depleting causing loss of habitat and Salmon stock number continue to plummet.
I would have to say man is the root cause of the loss of the Coral population. Not saying it is Global Warming but a thousand other reasons.

J

[Fastlife]

My LFS is MAC certified to sell live stock, they are on the websites list.The name is Absolutel Fish, they are about 3min away from where i live. The MAC live stock is actualy more expensive the the tank raised fish.They have a web site if anyone is intrested in checking them out.

[Speedy]

Originally Posted by Birdlady

I am still looking for info on your comments regarding the Carribbean. You are basically saying there is very little coral reef left in the Carribean? I find that difficult to believe actually. Do you have any links I could check out?

Is National Geographic a good source?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ng/photo4.html

Discovery Channel Canada?
http://exn.ca/Stories/1998/05/05/56.asp

GlobalCoral.org quotes a Discovery channel Canada online article:
http://www.globalcoral.org/Coral%20P.../discovery.htm

GSReport
http://www.gsreport.com/articles/art000023.html

UCSUSA
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming...bleaching.html

ScienceDaily?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0726101653.htm

NOAA?
http://www.coral.noaa.gov/cleo/coral_bleaching.shtml

"The warm SSTs associated with the El Nino event were identified as the cause of death of over 99% of corals and the complete loss of reef structures in the Galapagos Islands and the death of over 50% of corals in Panama (Glynn and D’Croz 1990; Glynn 1993). ....The 1997-98 El Nino event is the strongest on record to date, resulting in unprecedented coral bleaching and death across the globe (Wilkinson et al. 1999)"


All show that global warming in 1998 caused major causalties in reefs not only in the carribean, but in the entire world.

However, I am afraid that the reason for this debate is the cause of the disaster. Denial. Nobody likes to look at horror right in the face and admit it's coming at you. But guess what BirdLady it is... If it's a cycle so what.. it's gonna cycle right over you... and you're still gonna have to face it.

BTW, I'm usually not this touchy, but I really don't appreciate insinuations that my posts aren't backed by facts, or that it is stuff that I am making up. If I read it from a REPUTABLE SOURCE or experienced it first hand and I think it can contribute I'll include the message in my posts. Otherwise, I am very careful about not spreading lies, hoaxes, or false information. I'm sure your intentions were wholesome, but I assure you so were mine.

[Birdlady]

Originally Posted by Speedy

However, I am afraid that the reason for this debate is the cause of the disaster. Denial. Nobody likes to look at horror right in the face and admit it's coming at you. But guess what BirdLady it is... If it's a cycle so what.. it's gonna cycle right over you... and you're still gonna have to face it.

BTW, I'm usually not this touchy, but I really don't appreciate insinuations that my posts aren't backed by facts, or that it is stuff that I am making up. If I read it from a REPUTABLE SOURCE or experienced it first hand and I think it can contribute I'll include the message in my posts. Otherwise, I am very careful about not spreading lies, hoaxes, or false information. I'm sure your intentions were wholesome, but I assure you so were mine.

First off, you have seen me on this board for a year now, and I have NEVER insinuated anything! I was asking a genuine question as to the Caribbean specifically because I could not find any! You gave one link that address Belize, which is considered the Caribbean...but all the rest were relating to other coral reefs. I am NOT saying it is not occurring. I am only offering the "other side of the story" as to WHY. I did not say you had incorrect facts, or were making stuff up! It is not my nature...

My inquiring mind reads things such as this quote from one of the links you gave...

"In some parts of the Indian Ocean mortality is as high as 90 percent. "

Let's take this apart, OK..

In some parts (what parts, how much is a 'part') mortality is as high as 90%....

OK, the overall mortality there is NOT 90%, just some parts.

I can lose one coral in my tank, and state factually, "In some parts of my reef, I had 100% mortality" But in reality, it may be more like 2% of the total.

I am just suspect of how things can be worded to progress an agenda.

Most of the articles you linked also give other reasons for coral bleaching, such as flooding due to storms of freshwater into the reef, affecting salinity, as well as the damaging nature of some storms.

90% of all corals in my tank are propagated from other reefers. I do my part to conserve nature and respect it. I just am not convinced (which is different than being in denial) that Man is the cause of global warming. Our air today is much cleaner than it was 25 years ago. So is our water. Pollution is down from industry and from cars. We have been heading in that direction for quite some time now. Pollution issues did not occur overnite, nor can it be corrected that way.

I drive a mini van with an ecologically friendly motor. I am just exhausted of hearing, The earth is warmer, it must be our fault...with no real evidence to support that. In fact, we have evidence that the earth has been warmer than it is right now, and colder - before man was even on the earth.

Obviously a debate that can rage until the cows come home....if it is a cycle, it will cycle right over me, and begin a new cycle, as the earth has done for millions of years.

I did not mean to offend you, and re-reading my other posts, I don't feel I did. I thought I was offering up friendly discussion. Sorry if it was taken otherwise!

[Speedy]

Gotta love you BL. I apologize for misinterpreting your words.

I know your rep on the board is always on the up and up. And I don't blame you for questioning my data. I actually can't find the article I read on this. I remember reading article written in 2003 by both CNN and BBC stating factually that 80% of the reefs in the carribean had been lost, however they also stated that no evidence had been found that it be due to climate changes or global warming. I did however read a more recent article from a likely reputable source that did directly pin GW as the cause of the loss.

Here's the link to the CNN article above: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science.../coolsc.coral/

BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3072741.stm

As you will see in the articles above, there is no play in words they aren't talking about 80% of the reefs in someone's backyard of their waterfront home. It's the entire caribean. And though granted the flooding, storms, hurricanes aren't global warming, there are relations between them, right. Isn't El Nino supposed to be affected by warmer temps. Hurricanes too, right? So is it not possible that it is in fact being affected by GW.

And when in the history of mankind did so many of them pollute daily. Because enviro friendly vehicles still have some emission, And I think it's safe to say that the majority of vehicles aren't enviro friendly right? For the past couple of decades we have been forced to drive our cars to and from work and we have been forced to rely on such forms of transportation. Millions of cars emmitting gases at all hours of the day, cannot be helping the the Ozone. And without that we turn into a spec of ash in orbit.

Now I'm not trying to make anyone on this board feel guilty that they are the cause for GW. We are not. What could we do? We need vehicles to survive in this life, so it's not our fault. I personally pin the fault on those that PROFIT from keeping Zero Emission technology under wraps. I have a personal friend that tuned a diesel engine to run on water. Upon attempting to patent it, the German government took it into custody as a matter of "national security". It never resurfaced.

My rage and edge is against those that CAN drastically change for the better the lives of humanity. For the well being of nature, the planet, they themselves would benefit from it. But they rather step on the lives of millions of people, many more millions of creatures of the animal kingdom, and the many millions of lives of humans that will suffer in the future because of it. Just to lace their own pockets with more silk, to have a bigger yatch or mansion, nicer car with a better looking driver, a nicer entertainment center and bar inside their executive jets, for their exotic vacations where they go to run away from the disasters they are causing, for all their freaking corruption and extorsion. That is who I direct the rage.

Tell me you think this is fair, BL. Or that you think it's not happening. And I will give you all reason and the end of this discussion.